Pak parties pledge peace with India in their manifestos

[anilindia]

PAKISTANI PARTIES NEVER wrote in their MANEIESTOS warwith INDIA...now or in the past!! infact pakistan never wanted war! it is always the indians that want war.specially indian media!



oh how about we nuke you for fun??? that is an option now isn't it? stop trying to troll little boy!

What about India stops all water in kashmir. We won war without fighting...
Obviously pakistan does not want war with India now. Already pak army is busy in western sector, they dont want trouble in eastern sector...

 

[notorious_eagle]

That is true. I'd say that the benefit will be on both sides. Historically; FP wrt India has been decided in GHQ, Rawalpindi. Now the indications are that GHQ is changing some of its legacy policies; even more so with the 'creeping realisation' that the bigger menace to Pakistan lies within Pakistan, in the shape of increasingly uncontrollable Jehadi groups. Gen. Kiyani seems to represent that thought process. However the question is; after Kiyani. what? Because that strongly-held belief that India poses an eternal existential threat to Pakistan has been taught for long in the Pakistani Security Estt. Have all the overtones of that subsided? You may even be justified in not deciding to be friends with India (after all it is your prerogative) but you would just be masochistic if you persist in labelling India an enemy. The fact is that, India's Strategic Estt. needs Pakistan to exist; and in a stable form. Even GHQ will find it easier to tackle all the internal threats if it can ratchet-down the tensions with India. Ideally GHQ can even consider co-operating with India to tackle rising insurgency; but it is finally GHQ's call on that matter. Rather than hoping that the insurgents can be manipulated to keep the "K-Factor" continually boiling. Because the insurgents are steadily going out of control of anybody and India is steadily beefing up both its resolve and capability to handle that. In any case the "K-Factor" will remain a stalemate for eternity.

Then there is a large constituency in India too that views increasing Trade and Good Relations with Pakistan very favorably. Not because they are a collection of "Pious Saints" but simply because Common Sense says so.

I want to make a correction for you, Gen Kiyani is indeed the COAS but think tanks present in the General Staff are the ones that devise PA's policy. PA is not a one man show, it is an institution and that is the biggest strength of PA. It does not matter who the COAS is, the policies devised by these think tanks inside the General Staff will be followed regardless of who the COAS is. I can tell you as a fact that there is no institution in Pakistan that does as much brainstorming as this institution does. The consensus is that Pakistan can no longer afford to fight a full fledged war against India, the fall out will be far too devastating. India is a country of 1.2 billion people with a trillion dollar economy, it is not a contest between two equals.

Another point i would like to make is that there is a fallacy that exists both in India and the Western World that PA wants hostile relationship with India to maintain a dominant role. Lets get something clear here, even if both Pakistan and India do manage to create peaceful relations with each other, PA will still continue to maintain credible deterrence in terms of force levels against India. It will also continue to have a major influence in Pakistani politics as long as Pakistani political institutions fail to deliver governance to the masses. PA's influence is directly linked with governance because traditionally it has always been the Army that has delivered governance and economic growth while in power. It will continue to be seen as the saviour as long as the politicians fail to there job.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I want to make a correction for you, Gen Kiyani is indeed the COAS but think tanks present in the General Staff are the ones that devise PA's policy. PA is not a one man show, it is an institution and that is the biggest strength of PA. It does not matter who the COAS is, the policies devised by these think tanks inside the General Staff will be followed regardless of who the COAS is. I can tell you as a fact that there is no institution in Pakistan that does as much brainstorming as this institution does. The consensus is that Pakistan can no longer afford to fight a full fledged war against India, the fall out will be far too devastating. India is a country of 1.2 billion people with a trillion dollar economy, it is not a contest between two equals.

Another point i would like to make is that there is a fallacy that exists both in India and the Western World that PA wants hostile relationship with India to maintain a dominant role. Lets get something clear here, even if both Pakistan and India do manage to create peaceful relations with each other, PA will still continue to maintain credible deterrence in terms of force levels against India. It will also continue to have a major influence in Pakistani politics as long as Pakistani political institutions fail to deliver governance to the masses. PA's influence is directly linked with governance because traditionally it has always been the Army that has delivered governance and economic growth while in power. It will continue to be seen as the saviour as long as the politicians fail to there job.

A question Sir:

What is to stop the PA from preventing the politicians to rise up since you seem to indicate that it has a clear vested interest in seeing them fail?

 

[Beerbal]

IPI is bullsh!t, It will arm Balochistani against India..

If India want Baloch cause to be alive, don't participate in IPI...

 

[notorious_eagle]

A question Sir:

What is to stop the PA from preventing the politicians to rise up since you seem to indicate that it has a clear vested interest in seeing them fail?

Has the PA stopped the politicians from rising up and delivering governance to the people? Please name me a single incident of this happening. The Army has stayed away from all domestic activities in the last 5 years, so pray tell me have the politicians rose up and deliver governance to the people. Thus, the assertion you were trying to make is not backed up by any evidence. The Army has a vested interest to see the nation progress because there own funding is reliant on the economy. At present, several projects by the Army have been cut due to the severe financial crunch.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I want to make a correction for you, Gen Kiyani is indeed the COAS but think tanks present in the General Staff are the ones that devise PA's policy. PA is not a one man show, it is an institution and that is the biggest strength of PA. It does not matter who the COAS is, the policies devised by these think tanks inside the General Staff will be followed regardless of who the COAS is. I can tell you as a fact that there is no institution in Pakistan that does as much brainstorming as this institution does. The consensus is that Pakistan can no longer afford to fight a full fledged war against India, the fall out will be far too devastating. India is a country of 1.2 billion people with a trillion dollar economy, it is not a contest between two equals.

Another point i would like to make is that there is a fallacy that exists both in India and the Western World that PA wants hostile relationship with India to maintain a dominant role. Lets get something clear here, even if both Pakistan and India do manage to create peaceful relations with each other, PA will still continue to maintain credible deterrence in terms of force levels against India. It will also continue to have a major influence in Pakistani politics as long as Pakistani political institutions fail to deliver governance to the masses. PA's influence is directly linked with governance because traditionally it has always been the Army that has delivered governance and economic growth while in power. It will continue to be seen as the saviour as long as the politicians fail to there job.

I wish I could agree whole-heartedly with your post; but I cannot. This "Think Tank" as you put it exists in GHQ. That is entirely plausible. Now did you disagree with my statement that FP wrt India emanates from there or at least, is controlled from there?
Assuming that the "Think Tank" is as institutionalised as the PA or its GHQ is; has it always had the primacy in deciding/controlling the PA's policies/doctrines? You do say that Gen. Kiyani is not the sole arbiter of PA's policies/doctrines, and I may be inclined to accept that.
But has that always been the case? The evidence indicates it not to be so. In case of atleast a few Generals who saw themselves as bigger than the institutions of the PA or the State. One name comes readily to mind; that of the forlorn Musharraff. If the "Think Tank" had floated or even supported the idea of the Kargil Misadventure; then I'd say that the "Think Tank" was bereft of any understanding of Geo-Strategic and Political thought. Simply a Tank without much Thinking! That is what I was speaking about in my post that you responded to above. If you are alluding to a change of thought process that is going to be a constant; then that is welcome. Otherwise it will be just a matter to observe very closely and respond in the required calibrated manner.

About the other part of your post; @Argus Panoptes has raised a niggling question which is there in my mind too.

 

[Bhai Zakir]

It does not matter, both GHQ and all political parties are on the same page in regards to relations with India. All strata of society whether its politicians, generals or bureaucrats have realized that good relations with India are in the best interests of Pakistan. If you look at the past statements and actions of GHQ General Staff, it is increasingly in favour of improving ties with India. To put it bluntly, Pakistan stands to gain economically and diplomatically with a friendly India.

I don't think so:

Pakistan’s army chief confirms India remains biggest threat ; puts end to the idle secular-Islam debate.

Kayani On Indian Generals And Islam

 

[schadenfreude]

What about India stops all water in kashmir. We won war without fighting...
Obviously pakistan does not want war with India now. Already pak army is busy in western sector, they dont want trouble in eastern sector...

Yeah, you won it already .. in idiocy.

Stopping the water and not expecting any reaction? Why should you then whine about Pakistan playing "aggressive"?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Let me try to understand this.

First you say this:

I..........
Another point i would like to make is that there is a fallacy that exists both in India and the Western World that PA wants hostile relationship with India to maintain a dominant role. Lets get something clear here, even if both Pakistan and India do manage to create peaceful relations with each other, PA will still continue to maintain credible deterrence in terms of force levels against India. It will also continue to have a major influence in Pakistani politics as long as Pakistani political institutions fail to deliver governance to the masses. PA's influence is directly linked with governance because traditionally it has always been the Army that has delivered governance and economic growth while in power. It will continue to be seen as the saviour as long as the politicians fail to there job.

and then you say this:

Has the PA stopped the politicians from rising up and delivering governance to the people? Please name me a single incident of this happening. The Army has stayed away from all domestic activities in the last 5 years, so pray tell me have the politicians rose up and deliver governance to the people. Thus, the assertion you were trying to make is not backed up by any evidence. The Army has a vested interest to see the nation progress because there own funding is reliant on the economy. At present, several projects by the Army have been cut due to the severe financial crunch.

So, despite the clear vested interest the Army has in maintaining its influence, which you mention as a necessary continuation, you also claim on the other hand that there is no evidence that the Army has prevented the politicians from governance.

What do you think happened in Pakistan's past (not just the last 5 years) that led to the politician's being in such a sorry state that the Army's influence was needed in the first place? Why is it that the politician's consistently failed to rise up to the necessary level? Is that all due to their incompetence, or other forces were at work that lead them to fail?

With due respect, and without any offense intended, our Army is not as innocently virtuous as you claim Sir.

 

[mr42O]

Good

But whats Indian manifesto ?

 

[notorious_eagle]

So, despite the clear vested interest the Army has in maintaining its influence, which you mention as a necessary continuation, you also claim on the other hand that there is no evidence that the Army has prevented the politicians from governance.

Can you please name an instance where the Army has stopped the Government from initiating reforms and improving governance? In fact, the Army Chief is on record urging the leaders to put the economy back on track because a faltering economy has multiple repercussions on all parts of the society. You are just engaging in witch hunting, you have no evidence to back up your wild assertions. The Army would be more than happy to stay in the Barracks and perform its constitutionally mandated role, but when our political institutions f*** up, it is forced to step in and set the country straight on the right path. The civilian government is nowhere to be seen in the war devastated Fataville, the Army has been forced to step in and provide basic civic facilities to the people because the civilian government has failed due to there incompetence and corruption.

What do you think happened in Pakistan's past (not just the last 5 years) that led to the politician's being in such a sorry state that the Army's influence was needed in the first place? Why is it that the politician's consistently failed to rise up to the necessary level? Is that all due to their incompetence, or other forces were at work that lead them to fail?

So far all the 'so called' democratically elected governments have been an absolute failure. They have only engaged to further there own vested personal interests instead of furthering the nation's interests. Forget the last 5 years, what about the stagnant 90's? All one has to do is open a history book and look at the performance of the country during the 'so called' democratic era, you will get the gist of what i am talking about. Unfortunately the failure of our democratic leaders is entirely due to there own incompetence. The only thing that has flourished during there tenure is corruption, nepotism, favouritism and incompetence.

With due respect, and without any offense intended, our Army is not as innocently virtuous as you claim Sir.

They most certainly are not, but compared to our politicians they look like angels.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

...............
They most certainly are not, but compared to our politicians they look like angels.

The concluding statement is correct Sir, with which I can agree.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I wish I could agree whole-heartedly with your post; but I cannot. This "Think Tank" as you put it exists in GHQ. That is entirely plausible. Now did you disagree with my statement that FP wrt India emanates from there or at least, is controlled from there?
Assuming that the "Think Tank" is as institutionalised as the PA or its GHQ is; has it always had the primacy in deciding/controlling the PA's policies/doctrines? You do say that Gen. Kiyani is not the sole arbiter of PA's policies/doctrines, and I may be inclined to accept that.
But has that always been the case? The evidence indicates it not to be so. In case of atleast a few Generals who saw themselves as bigger than the institutions of the PA or the State. One name comes readily to mind; that of the forlorn Musharraff. If the "Think Tank" had floated or even supported the idea of the Kargil Misadventure; then I'd say that the "Think Tank" was bereft of any understanding of Geo-Strategic and Political thought. Simply a Tank without much Thinking! That is what I was speaking about in my post that you responded to above. If you are alluding to a change of thought process that is going to be a constant; then that is welcome. Otherwise it will be just a matter to observe very closely and respond in the required calibrated manner.

Don't look too much into the past, i would urge you to look at the current composition of PA. The COAS is only in power because he enjoys the confidence of the Corps Commanders. The Corps Commanders are in power because they enjoy the confidence of the officers and jawans serving in there own Regiments.

If we are to only look at the past and not look into the present, than past tells us that PA Generals could never see above the battalion level and never considered the AF there equals. But our present is contrary to our past, PA is now performing manoeuvres on division level in complete synergy with the AF. This was something unthinkable 10 years ago, but things changed and PA has moved on to establish itself as a truly well oiled institution. If God Forbid the COAS is assassinated today, PA will still continue to function as an institution seamlessly because the structures have been institutionalized.

About the other part of your post; @Argus Panoptes has raised a niggling question which is there in my mind too.

I have already answered those queries

 

[Spring Onion]

IPI is bullsh!t, It will arm Balochistani against India..

If India want Baloch cause to be alive, don't participate in IPI...

1. so BLA cause hangs on Indian support.

2. Iran gave a statement today that India will join IP gasline soon.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Don't look too much into the past, i would urge you to look at the current composition of PA. The COAS is only in power because he enjoys the confidence of the Corps Commanders. The Corps Commanders are in power because they enjoy the confidence of the officers and jawans serving in there own Regiments.

If we are to only look at the past and not look into the present, than past tells us that PA Generals could never see above the battalion level and never considered the AF there equals. But our present is contrary to our past, PA is now performing manoeuvres on division level in complete synergy with the AF. This was something unthinkable 10 years ago, but things changed and PA has moved on to establish itself as a truly well oiled institution. If God Forbid the COAS is assassinated today, PA will still continue to function as an institution seamlessly because the structures have been institutionalized.

I hope that is all indeed so. I am personally inclined to believe that Gen, Kiyani has been one of the most intelligent and democratic generals to adorn the post of COAS of the PA. But I will also prefer to wait out and see what happens after his superannuation to believe that the changes are really institutional.

1. so BLA cause hangs on Indian support.

2. Iran gave a statement today that India will join IP gasline soon.

Did India give any statement to that effect?
"Maan ya na maan; main tera yajmaan" - which translates as "whether you wish it or not; I am you host".