Pak must keep option of force over water row with India: JuD

[shiningindia]

i think jdu is political party of pakistan and they r supporting terroist.

 

[Hulk]

Its to know all, they are just playing with technicalities. What I do not like that even in forums people does not tell the truth. If you are supporting be brave and say openly that yes I support terrorist.

 

[karan.1970]

i think jdu is political party of pakistan and they r supporting terroist.

JuD is a banned organization in Pakistan designated as a terror outfit by UNSC

 

[toxic_pus]

It is really hilarious how a banned organisation gets to hold public rallies, invite representatives from mainstream political parties - who also don't hesitate to attend such rallies - and openly advocate terrorism, for which they were banned in the first place. Where else in the world can one get to see such a circus?

And then the Pakistanis whine when their so call anti-terrorist actions are called dog and pony show. They whine some more when they are made aware of their 'political and cultural DNA'.

 

[toxic_pus]

Its their views and they are allowed to say it loud because they have the freedom to speak out what they think.

It does not mean that Pakistan is going to accept it as they are not our policy makers.

The point is not if GoP will accept their views. The point is that they, the Kashmiri mujahideens, view Pakistan as their master and that they appear to be more concerned with Pakistan's interest than their own.

The question is why, if it was all indigenous.

 

[karan.1970]

The point is not if GoP will accept their views. The point is that they, the Kashmiri mujahideens, view Pakistan as their master and that they appear to be more concerned with Pakistan's interest than their own.

The question is why, if it was all indigenous.

Because its not.. The trend is so visible.. After 1971, you have Khalistan insurgency, Kashmir insurgency, Kargil (that was more in response to Siachen though). 1971 was an episode Pakistan's then generation has not been able to come out of.. And it shot it's economy and its position in the global community to hell trying to avenge it. Has been for last 20+ years now. May be the new generation will let better sense prevail

 

[karan.1970]

I dont know whether the JuD was asking permission from GoP or the other way round..Right on cue, GoP towes the JuD line

Pak harps on water over terror- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


The Foreign Minsters of India and Pakistan will meet on July 15th. India has ruled out conceding any ground to Pakistan on the water issue.

Minutes after India's External Affairs Minister SM Krishna had a telephone conversation with his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the latter held a press conference in Islamabad. During the press conference, Qureshi emphasised the primacy of water issues over India's concerns over terror from Pakistan soil.

Pakistan's decision to pick on the water dispute is particularly noticable as just a few days ago LeT, HiZB and other top terrorist groups have demanded Pakistan go to war with India over water.

Highly placed sources in government have told TIMES NOW that New Delhi will not concede any more ground on the question of the Baghlihar and Wullar or Tulbul barrage or the Kishenganga water projects on the Indus and Jhelumrivers. New Delhi has made it clear that the issue was settled in the 1960s after the World Bank mediated a solution and the two countries signed an agreement.

Now, Pakistan has requested the World Bank for the appointment of a neutral expert to resolve the differences with India on the Baglihar. The World Bank on its part has said it ws not a guarantor of the 1960 treaty

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

First off, the most important point these statements illustrate is that the arguments Pakistan and Pakistanis have made, of Pakistan having played a crucial role in almost eliminating the violent insurgency in J&K over the last decade, are accurate.

So the JuD is asking for the government's permission? Does the JuD require government permission before all their acts? So who did they take permission from before carrying out the Mumbai attacks?

Thats a strawman - the JUD has denied invovlement in the Mumbia attacks and has challenge its designation in the UN, without trial, of a terrorist organization. Courts in Pakistan have found no evidence justifying that decision, nor has India provided any credible evidence implicating Hafiz Saeed.

Lets not resort to making cheap points and flaming please.

According to the above statement, the so-called" Kashmiri mujahideen" are waiting for permission from the Pakistani government. So much for it being an indigenous movement ! Why would " Kashmiri mujahideen" be interested with Pakistan's water as opposed to Kashmir getting it if Kashmiri interests were in their hearts?

Given that insurgent groups, or for that matter any entity, need resources to pursue an agenda, the support of the GoP in both allowing the groups to collect resources and carry out unhindered operations means they cannot act, for the most part, without GoP support. That is all that means.

The JuD is a banned organisation. Yet all the parties attend a meeting called by them and then want the world to believe that their hands are clean w.r.t. terrorism. A threat is issued in a public meeting where permission is sought to ostensibly indulge in terrorist actions and all this is done in the presence of mainstream Pakistani parties and no action is taken.

The JuD has been found innocent in Pakistani courts.

I posted an article pointing out how the UN's rather flawed and opaque process of designating terrorist entities is finding opposition even in the EU:

Perspectives on Terrorism - UN Terrorist Designation System Needs Reform

Little wonder then that Pakistan is not taken seriously when it protests that it is fighting against all terrorism.

I think the JuD case has lots of loopholes, and unless the UN fixes its process of how it arrives at these terrorism designations, the system will remain broken.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There was a brief discussion on this some time back.. On one hand Pakistan demands that India fulfills the UN resolution of 1948 on Kashmir and on the other hand refuses to adhere to the UNSC resolution that asks member nations to prevent transit of designated terrorists(Hafiz Saeed in this case) in its territories..

Nothing in the UNSC designations prevents the movement of HS inside Pakistan administered territory. The transit part was argued to apply to transit between nations, so this argument of yours does not hold any weight.

If transit applied to intra-Pakistan transit, then one is justified in asking how it is defined, since technically moving from your house to the neighborhood store is 'transit'. Therefore the only logical application of 'transit' is in the context of 'inter-state transit'. In any case, India can raise the issue with the UN if she thinks the 'transit clause' is being violated, and we'll see what the UN determination is.

Designated terrorists are able to hold public rallies attended by the members of the govt.

Organizations found innocent in Pakistani courts, and nothing in the UN designation prevents politicians meeting with these individuals. There was no clause on solitary confinement was there?

Designated terrorists in open forums, seek GoP permission to allow Kashmiri mujahiddins to go and blow up dams in Jammu and Kashmir

Free speech

and then people wonder why Pakistan has a bad image in the world. On why most terrorists caught these days are either born, or raised or trained in Pakistan. And why the whole world is ganging up on them...

I can only recall one out of the last three attacking the US as having anything to do with Pakistan, and even the one that was born in Pakistan got radicalized in the US, not in Pakistan, where he led a liberal life.

Nadal Hassan was born and bred American, linked to Yemen. Christmas bomber was Nigerian, radicalized in the US. 911 attackers were Arabs, linked to OBL and Afghanistan.

The 711 bombers were all born and bred British, and two out of the three were radicalized in Britain, not in Pakistan.

And why every single Pakistani outside of Pakistan when hears about a terror incident, prays that a Pakistani is not involved in the same...

That reflects poorly on West, in that Pakistanis fear discrimination and prejudice against all, based on the actions of a few.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

and openly advocate terrorism

Where did the JuD advocate killing civilians and non-combatants, unlike the actions of the East Pakistani rebels sponsored by Indian in 1971 that Indians continue to glorify?

And then the Pakistanis whine when their so call anti-terrorist actions are called dog and pony show. They whine some more when they are made aware of their 'political and cultural DNA'.

The 'dog and pony show' is the closed door, opaque and no-trial terrorist designation by the UN. The lack of evidence against the JuD and Hafiz Saeed is evident in that even India resorts to telling Pakistan to collect evidence, when asked for the same to back up its claims of JuD and HS guilt.

So yes, when Indians and some Westerners dredge up fantastic claims with little bearing on reality, contradicted soundly by poll after poll on Pakistani opinions towards terrorism and attacks on civilians, those commentators are justifiably called out as being prejudiced, anti-Pakistan hate-mongers, of which you are a perfect personification, caught up in your irrational hatred and prejudice against Pakistanis due to your Bengali roots.

 

[Nemesis]

Is JuD really banned in Pakistan? I was under the impression it wasn't. Although, it speaks volumes that a organization the UN has termed as a terrorist organization, is allowed to hold rallies in Pakistan and dictate Pakistani foreign policy apparently.

The JuD has been found innocent in Pakistani courts.

I wonder AM, have you ever thought why JuD is considered a terrorist organization by almost the entire world but Pakistan continues to see it as a organization for charity? Perhaps such an introspection would reveal insights into the state of Pakistan today.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

wish the same so called freedom of speech is available for people from pakistan occupied kashmir, balochistan and the tribals who are being bombed day in day out..

There are videos galore, of Baluch separatists explaining their POV and their demands for independence, on Pakistani TV channels, posted often by Indians on this forum. So yes I would argue there is plenty of 'freedom of speech' afforded to even those people.

Now stick to the topic.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is JuD really banned in Pakistan? I was under the impression it wasn't. Although, it speaks volumes that a organization the UN has termed as a terrorist organization, is allowed to hold rallies in Pakistan and dictate Pakistani foreign policy apparently.

It is banned, but the Pakistani courts have declared it innocent, and therefore the minimum is done to comply with UN restrictions resulting out of the UN ban.

I wonder AM, have you ever thought why JuD is considered a terrorist organization by almost the entire world but Pakistan continues to see it as a organization for charity? Perhaps such an introspection would reveal insights into the state of Pakistan today.

Please see the essay discussing the problems arising out of the UN terrorist designation system, from the perspective of the EU, that I posted in my previous response to Bang Galore.

Pakistan is not the only nation having issues with complying with system that uses no fair means, with the parties affected having no input, and then having local courts find no cause for such bans.

 

[Nemesis]

It is banned, but the Pakistani courts have declared it innocent, and therefore the minimum is done to comply with UN restrictions resulting out of the UN ban.

This makes no sense to me. Either it is banned or it isn't banned. Are you saying that it was banned before, but the courts have overruled the decision?

 

[TATA]

Many here don't know that LeT/JuD types are saved by china in UN using its member of security council with veto power. China supports them because they are harming India. So we need UNSC membership for this purpose also.