Pak missiles more superior than India’s: Dr Samar

[The Ultranationalist]

lol now you are comparing yourself with china.
Get a toilet and a deodorant gupta Smell you later

we dont have to compare ourselves with commies cheerleader. improve your reading skill go find yourself some decent school if one is available in pakistan then come and blow me by the way, the names Singh

 

[desimorty]

Indian analysis regarding Pakistani missile program.

- Copy of North Korean
- If not, than definitely Chinese
-Wait a second, what about fallen TomHawk cruise missile during 1998 raid

Source: Pak missiles more superior than India’s: Dr Samar | Page 4

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Pretty much an out side analysis. Pakistan doesn't have the RnD budget of India nore the actual capacity. Its mostly bolstering of "indigenous" that happens in India and China as well. Pakistan bought off the shelf, what it could and prioritize development. NK, China helped. The got away with to America in the 80s and failed to do anything in the early 90s.
You may want to get a rough guess of what Pakistan's national budget really is for defence because Pakistan some how keeps a ratio of 2 to 1 forcing a stalemate of sorts.
PA clearly thinks this is sustainable but we will have to see how much India grows in the next decades.

 

[SQ8]

While I love this man, and know he isnt wrong at all where Babur and Nirbhay are concerned; I would be doubtful that the overall cruise and ballistic missile programs are superior. I am of the opinion that the cruise(and stand off) program of Pakistan is much more advanced in terms of operational systems. On the other hand the Indians have the upper hand with the Brahmos(not totally "home-made" though) in terms of a quicker reaction system that is very difficult to intercept.

When it comes to Ballistic missiles, India has a more advanced prototype and testing program while Pakistan has the more advanced operational one.

 

[Donatello]

While I love this man, and know he isnt wrong at all where Babur and Nirbhay are concerned; I would be doubtful that the overall cruise and ballistic missile programs are superior. I am of the opinion that the cruise(and stand off) program of Pakistan is much more advanced in terms of operational systems. On the other hand the Indians have the upper hand with the Brahmos(not totally "home-made" though) in terms of a quicker reaction system that is very difficult to intercept.

When it comes to Ballistic missiles, India has a more advanced prototype and testing program while Pakistan has the more advanced operational one.

What do you think is the reason for that? (other than the tomahawk gift)

 

[ConcealCarry]

what ever floats or nose dives your missiles

lol, he means chinese missiles are superiorto the Indian ones
s single Indian missile in developmental phase failed during trials due to technical snag ad this stupid pakistani jumped to a conclusion good, its just a matter of time before Nirbhay gets operational. Agni 3 and GSLV rockets too failed on some occasions during their development but both are operational now. delusional pakistanis

 

[war&peace]

India has also started developing missile program with copied technology and huge foreign assistance especially in their space/GSLV program. Indians have naturally lack talent and originality whether it is music and film or it is technology, however, they have been able to supply huge funds for their defence project by depriving 80% of indians living below poverty line. Thus they can buy a lot of off-the-shelf components and systems.

 

[Viper0011.]

It has been speculated that Babur is based on Kh-55SM/Korshun LACM, whose detailed production engineering data packages were bought from Kiev by 2001 which had by then been developed by Ukraine’s Dnipropetrovsk-based Yuzhnoye State Design Bureau. The operation involved Pakistan's famous A.Q. Khan. In early 2005, flight-tests of a variant of the DH-10A, having a range of 600km and equipped with a fibre-optic gyro coupled to an indigenously developed Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation (DSMAC) for mid-course navigation and terminal-homing system. This missile was later to become the 500km-range Babur, while its 280km-range anti-ship variant, incorporating an active radar seeker with 40km range for anti-ship strike, was designated as the C-602/YJ-62 and offered for sale worldwide since September 2005 by CPMIEC.

Its the opposite. This program is a reverse engineered Tomahawk CM. From what I've gathered, Pakistan actually provided the know how behind the Tomahawk. Not the other way around.

Every missile system is derivative of something else. This is like a Bulb, someone invented it, now there is a million types and forms of it available. Similarly, just because the original design principles were "stolen" from the Tomahawk, doesn't necessarily mean it is an exact copy of the Tomahawk, that would mean, it is a Pakistani version of the Tomahawk, which isn't true. The US weapons systems always have a proprietary element to them, so that can't be copied. Pakistan surprised the world by building such a sophisticated missile. So some credit should be given where its due.

 

[tarrar]

That is a fact. Our missiles are superior than India.

 

[Spectre]

This thread is all about schadenfreude

 

[Akasa]

It has been speculated that Babur is based on Kh-55SM/Korshun LACM, whose detailed production engineering data packages were bought from Kiev by 2001 which had by then been developed by Ukraine’s Dnipropetrovsk-based Yuzhnoye State Design Bureau. The operation involved Pakistan's famous A.Q. Khan. In early 2005, flight-tests of a variant of the DH-10A, having a range of 600km and equipped with a fibre-optic gyro coupled to an indigenously developed Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation (DSMAC) for mid-course navigation and terminal-homing system. This missile was later to become the 500km-range Babur, while its 280km-range anti-ship variant, incorporating an active radar seeker with 40km range for anti-ship strike, was designated as the C-602/YJ-62 and offered for sale worldwide since September 2005 by CPMIEC. China has supplied Pakistan's NESCOM with the jigs, lathes and moulding/machining/milling tooling required for fabricating the LACM’s sub-assemblies.[6] A 1995 Russian document suggested a complete production facility had been transferred to Shanghai, for the development of a nuclear-armed cruise missile. Originally it was thought that this was based on the 300 km-range Raduga Kh-15 (AS-16 'Kickback'), but it now appears that it was the Kh-55 that was transferred to China.[7] Some speculation also point to information gleaned from BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile, after six Tomahawks crash-landed on Pakistani territory in 2001 during US airstrikes on targets in Afghanistan,[8] and its design seems to show this influence. However, there is no confirmation of this and the Pakistani missile development organisation NESCOM has rejected this theory

A couple of technical discrepancies:
- The DH-10A (aka CJ-10) has a range of 2500 km, not 600 km.
- Neither the 400-km-range YJ-62 nor its export variant C-602 was based off the DH-10A
- There is no conclusive evidence that the Chinese got their hands on a Kh-55 or that their missiles are based off it.

This report puts forth the claim, without providing any logical evidence, that three completely different missiles were based off each other, the bureaucracy of which somehow magically escaped public eye.

Count me skeptical.

 

[amardeep mishra]

On the other hand the Indians have the upper hand with the Brahmos(not totally "home-made" though) in terms of a quicker reaction system that is very difficult to intercept.

Hi dear @Oscar !
You are absolutely correct here,brahmos is a JV and the most important part of brahmos- the liquid ramjet is russian designed. Interestingly the true range of that system is 500+kms.But the range is restricted to 300kms(thanks to certain mechanism)! The prime reason why india hasnt been able to increase the range of that system to itz true 500-600kms is simply because of the fact that india doesnt own the IPR of that engine.DRDO however is working on their own liquid ramjet which is in very advanced stages of development- once ready they would be able to increase the range of the system to 600kms. If you ask indian contribution in the brahmos project then i would say that india's contribution is limited to seeker,actuation systems,flight computer,more recently they have also developed the launcher and casing of the missile,yet the most important aspect of brahmos still happens to come from russia- the liquid ramjet!

On a related note i would like to point out that DRDL has demonstrated the scramjet engine by firing it for 20seconds back in 2011,the main challenge is to extend the endurance of the engine to at least 2minutes!You can find plethora of research papers coming out of india in the field of scramjet engine,in fact i know one of my colleague who is working on scramjet engine.Quite recently india has also established a hypersonic test tunnel at IISC bangalore(~1m diameter) to analyze the stability of the HSTDV.It helps in finding out derivatives of Cx,Cy and Cz with respect to alpha or velocity(popularly known as stability derivatives)! However for more realistic tests india still have to go to israeli/russian labs that have way higher diameter and can measure a lot more parameters(it is just not sufficient to have a wind tunnel lab,it is also important to have set up that can faithfully measure all the flight parmeters that we are interested in).In this regard DRDL is working on a hypersonic test tunnel with "bigger" diameter(bigger than 1m)!
I am attaching a couple of pics taken from various indian publications on scramjet research- hope that helps!

Finally coming to the question of nirbhay ,well I would like to elicit your response on
(a)What exactly does one mean when he/she say cruise missile x is better than cruise missile y?
(b)What exactly does it take to design "superior" systems?
I would like to shed some light on nirbhay - i wont go into the comparison as i want the members to arrive at some conclusion themselves!
Firstly one can find a decent amount of research and publications on nirbhay's research and development right from it's miniaturized gas turbine to seekers- that shows how transparent indian R&D in general is- unfortunately same logic cant be applied to pakistan and that coupled with very immature state of industry in pakistan casts some serious doubts regarding "how" and "from where" pakistan develops/procures its sub-systems!

Anyways nirbhay in it's 2nd trial covered a distance of close to 1050kms and the director general confirmed that the range would be increased and that the air launched version will have a range of 1500+kms! The 1st and 3rd failure has something to do with GNC(guidance navigation and control) . There is no instability in the design as such(CG not lying aft of aerodynamic centre). india currently has two miniaurized gas turbine programs going on
(1) first one is from HAL that has already test fired their GT and is in very advanced stages of development.Its specifications are as given in the picture above!
(2) GTRE is also developing miniaturized gas turbines for strategic applications however they havent test fired their engine.
Finally I would like to conclude by saying that a country with higher research spending/output and "relatively matured industries" will eventually prevail!

 

[LeGenD]

That is a fact. Our missiles are superior than India.

Actually no.

Pakistani security forces have some good missiles in its arsenal but we cannot claim superiority over Indian missiles in each category and/or for extensive period of time in some categories. Indians are currently investing in ABM and ICBM programs and this should tell us that they are making good progress.

We can claim that India lagged behind Pakistan in attaining maturity in IRBM program at one point like they lag behind Pakistan in attaining maturity in long-range cruise missile program in current times but they will eventually catch-up. Therefore, superiority claims are temporary and not long-lasting.

Furthermore, in our case, history of results of weapon 'experiments' are seldom disclosed to the public but this is not the situation in India. For example, we came to know about failure of Ghauri-III (IRBM) project from external sources.

 

[Alphacharlie]

India vs Pakistan CEO

Bravo Bravo......Clap Clap.

 

[s.k]

India vs Pakistan CEO

FB founder mark zuckerberg is also an indian we dont give a sh!t about that CEO things, stick to the topic

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Hi dear @Oscar !
You are absolutely correct here,brahmos is a JV and the most important part of brahmos- the liquid ramjet is russian designed. Interestingly the true range of that system is 500+kms.But the range is restricted to 300kms(thanks to certain mechanism)! The prime reason why india hasnt been able to increase the range of that system to itz true 500-600kms is simply because of the fact that india doesnt own the IPR of that engine.DRDO however is working on their own liquid ramjet which is in very advanced stages of development- once ready they would be able to increase the range of the system to 600kms. If you ask indian contribution in the brahmos project then i would say that india's contribution is limited to seeker,actuation systems,flight computer,more recently they have also developed the launcher and casing of the missile,yet the most important aspect of brahmos still happens to come from russia- the liquid ramjet!

On a related note i would like to point out that DRDL has demonstrated the scramjet engine by firing it for 20seconds back in 2011,the main challenge is to extend the endurance of the engine to at least 2minutes!You can find plethora of research papers coming out of india in the field of scramjet engine,in fact i know one of my colleague who is working on scramjet engine.Quite recently india has also established a hypersonic test tunnel at IISC bangalore(~1m diameter) to analyze the stability of the HSTDV.It helps in finding out derivatives of Cx,Cy and Cz with respect to alpha or velocity(popularly known as stability derivatives)! However for more realistic tests india still have to go to israeli/russian labs that have way higher diameter and can measure a lot more parameters(it is just not sufficient to have a wind tunnel lab,it is also important to have set up that can faithfully measure all the flight parmeters that we are interested in).In this regard DRDL is working on a hypersonic test tunnel with "bigger" diameter(bigger than 1m)!
I am attaching a couple of pics taken from various indian publications on scramjet research- hope that helps!
View attachment 266279 View attachment 266280
View attachment 266282 View attachment 266283


Finally coming to the question of nirbhay ,well I would like to elicit your response on
(a)What exactly does one mean when he/she say cruise missile x is better than cruise missile y?
(b)What exactly does it take to design "superior" systems?
I would like to shed some light on nirbhay - i wont go into the comparison as i want the members to arrive at some conclusion themselves!
Firstly one can find a decent amount of research and publications on nirbhay's research and development right from it's miniaturized gas turbine to seekers- that shows how transparent indian R&D in general is- unfortunately same logic cant be applied to pakistan and that coupled with very immature state of industry in pakistan casts some serious doubts regarding "how" and "from where" pakistan develops/procures its sub-systems!
View attachment 266284
Anyways nirbhay in it's 2nd trial covered a distance of close to 1050kms and the director general confirmed that the range would be increased and that the air launched version will have a range of 1500+kms! The 1st and 3rd failure has something to do with GNC(guidance navigation and control) . There is no instability in the design as such(CG not lying aft of aerodynamic centre). india currently has two miniaurized gas turbine programs going on
(1) first one is from HAL that has already test fired their GT and is in very advanced stages of development.Its specifications are as given in the picture above!
(2) GTRE is also developing miniaturized gas turbines for strategic applications however they havent test fired their engine.
Finally I would like to conclude by saying that a country with higher research spending/output and "relatively matured industries" will eventually prevail!

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.............................I actually thought that india was advanced and powerful in all things scientific and technological. The lab/testing facility in the above picture is even more backward and behind than the science labs of Holland Park Secondary school in London (UK) (That's a school for 11-16 year olds). That's quite shocking

FB founder mark zuckerberg is also an indian we dont give a sh!t about that CEO things, stick to the topic

He forgot to mention that there are also 7-8x times more Indians on this planet than Pakistanis. By the way, Neil Armstrong was an indian. As was Von Braun........lol