Pak Marines Forgotten force

[Falconless]

Coast guard il has barely a few small boats and is basically ANF and they only operate along within a few miles of the coast.

And why can’t one force do both, as the norm in almost all the countries?

 

[hoopoe]

They dont have required equipment just few hovercraft

this area is being addressed…

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Marines are expeditionary force or at least supposed to be in Pakistan's case. This means they should go places - beaches, deserts, jungles, mountains, snow peaks, riverine, swamps- basically everywhere. Even if they are kept as light forces meaning no MBTs or howitzers, they should still be able to perform multiple types of mission roles in different terrains. There was a talk of sending PA SSG into Afghanistan to rout TTP. Why wouldn't PM be a more suitable option ? In Pakistan's case, PM are on sentry duty. Protect shoreline, protect installations, patrol the swamps, provide static AD duties and in some cases assault ships if SSG (N) isn't in the scene.

In a practically ideal scenario, even if Marines aren't formed into a Strike Corps type of formation with armor, mech infantry, artillery, AD, engineers, signals etc, they can be trained on the lines of Army's LCB concept. Then they can be deployed all over Pakistan in company strength formations (100-150 troops) led by Lt. Comd. This would ensure that they at least possess air assault, CQB and AT training in their doctrine. These skills can then bring their name in all SF Ops which LCB performs.

Another thing, I opened a thread about Pakistan operating a foreign military base. It can be based in any friendly country however, its best suited in countries which have borders with India, e.g Myanmar and ports like Sri Lanka or Morocco or Malaysia. You see when you talked about forming a Marines Strike Corps, members here said that marines expansion or another Corps in Sindh isnt required, fair enough, it may hold merit, but remember Marines are an expeditionary force. Pakistan has stationed units in KSA. Pakistani forces didn't part in Saud-Yemen conflict but Pakistan could have sent forces to Turkey to form a military alliance. Now squeezing out troops from Army deployed in critical sectors like LOC, or borders isn't feasible. Some reserve formations are rotated for COIN war, a never ending war, at least the end is not in sight. Pakistan wont ever send Rangers or FC abroad, although they do go UN missions with Army. Its worth noting that KSA doesn't deploy troops in Pakistan except on training mission but Pakistan let USA take over Shamsi Airbase.

So if Pakistan expands Marines, where could Pakistan deploy them:
1. Rotation on LOC to relieve Army and NG battalions.
2. QRF on lines with LCB. in any cantonment or any city where Navy presides.
3. A military base abroad. Even in KSA to protect Mecca and Medina.
4. Sent out to any friendly country like Turkey to take part in Military Ops.
5. To conduct a military Ops in foreign/hostile country e.g. Afghanistan

I agree with this take. IMO a Strike Corps-caliber Marines would also create more demand for attack and utility helicopters, thus necessitating a domestic production line (once we combine tri-services requirements). However, even in Pakistan, the Marines should be an offensive fist. In a conventional war with India, we can bring them back to Pakistan and re-use them as a flex Strike Corps. Basically, a force that would significantly alter India's deployment in a war because of the presence of a "second army" somewhere.

OTOH, IMO, the COIN/CT role should go to a dedicated force. I think it should be a National Guard (with a National Air Reserve) that is purpose-built for COIN/CT from equipment to training to personnel. E.g., a strong HUMINT element with the capability to blend in local environments and rally the local populace. The equipment should comprise of MRAPs, AFVs, utility helicopters, attack helicopters, and dedicated fixed-wing CAS aircraft.

 

[R Wing]

IMO the entire paramilitary thing is inefficient.

I think the right model is to collapse the Rangers, FC, etc, into a 'National Guard' that operates as a reserve of the Army. Basically, an appendage to the Army that reports under GHQ, but with very specific mandates. These mandates can include COIN/CT, internal security, border control, etc.

I understand that the MoI's role on this is basically on paper and that, functionally speaking, the paramilitary forces operate under GHQ. However, the bureaucracy on paper is still creating an unnecessary mess. If we follow the US model of placing a united National Guard under the Army directly, we could achieve a lot of synergy -- e.g. COs, JCOs and NCOs can transition back-and-forth; common equipment (including MRAPs, helicopters, etc); tighter coordination when involving artillery and armour, drone use and so on.

My suspicion is that if we take the "efficient" approach, it results in fewer socio-economic opportunities for the less well-off. For our leaders, stuffing people into various public sector jobs (be it bureaucracy or paramilitary) is easier than worrying about developing the economy. If done right, you wouldn't need more than 100,000 well-equipped and trained soldiers in the National Guard, for example. You couple that with an 'Air Reserve Force' under the PAF with turboprop COIN/CT aircraft, drones, airlifters, etc, then it's a wrap IMO.

We technically have a precedent for this approach: the Maritime Security Agency. It basically is an appendage to the Pakistan Navy but carries out specific functions related to policing waters and so on. The Marines are another branch within that overall framework. The PN is likely still learning or grasping the value of their Marines would be, so it'll be a while before we see it "click" and roll them with the exact right equipment.

It also further concentrates power into a single seat at the GHQ --- this monopolization hasn't served us very well in the past few years, in my opinion, and extensions only make it worse.

OTOH, I agree with the inefficiencies in the present system (and the fact that, in essence, these are still controlled by GHQ).

 

[firohot4321]

Sir that is exactly our point change their role. Turn them into a strike corp. A Vice Admiral/Lt General rank officer from Navy should head them and should have number same as Punjab Rangers. Turn them and train them into an Army. Equip them with Tanks, IFV, APC, Transport and attack helicopters.

Why

Make an entire new army much more expensive and time taking

Why not upgrade the existing army

And we don't have the money ie

One way is rotation of army personnel for few years into a marine core and then sending em back to their army unit this would quickly create a marine core in cheaper cost

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Our focus is only on army upgradation but we forget most important force marines who fight in all three battlefields specilaized force but our marines are under armed

When existing weapons such as al khalid apc etxc can be transfered without any more spending and why we have PMSA and coast guard for one work two forces we can eadily transfer PMSA and its ship to marines and their budget as well
Guy sums up very well must see video eye opener imran bhai must see
Guy sums up very well must see video eye opener imran bhai must see
I hope toothless marine should be given upgrading package

I don't see a video

 

[hoopoe]

Why

Make an entire new army much more expensive and time taking

Why not upgrade the existing army

And we don't have the money ie

One way is rotation of army personnel for few years into a marine core and then sending em back to their army unit this would quickly create a marine core in cheaper cost

Gen. Musharraf wanted a reduced force (approx. 350k) but with capabilities in terms of tech n equipment second to none….anyone knows what happened to that vision of his?…

 

[Zarvan]

Gen. Musharraf wanted a reduced force (approx. 350k) but with capabilities in terms of tech n equipment second to none….anyone knows what happened to that vision of his?…

He never wanted that much reduced force. He was only against culture of Batman's.

 

[Darth Vader]

Pakistan bureaucracy at its best, in last decade what Pakistan have seen that these outfits are not ready to handle the modern warfare neither conventional warfare regularly deaths of FC soldiers, no where to blame no actual support.

Developing these dead horses will only mean sharing resources from much needed places.

Simplest solutions is combining fc, marines rangers and remaning as a single unit which combined with reserves work as force Multiplier with current forces or a independent unit if needed directly under military supervision which means resources between two can be shared as if you created mother, child situation army will eat the resources.
Just to make it relevant make that force the main point for any action taking place inside Pakistan while army will be lead when it comes out of order,
Better communication, better use of resource & much more developed force which can deal with internal and external threats while giving breather to army so they can solely protect border against India

 

[Sayfullah]

I agree with this take. IMO a Strike Corps-caliber Marines would also create more demand for attack and utility helicopters, thus necessitating a domestic production line (once we combine tri-services requirements). However, even in Pakistan, the Marines should be an offensive fist. In a conventional war with India, we can bring them back to Pakistan and re-use them as a flex Strike Corps. Basically, a force that would significantly alter India's deployment in a war because of the presence of a "second army" somewhere.

OTOH, IMO, the COIN/CT role should go to a dedicated force. I think it should be a National Guard (with a National Air Reserve) that is purpose-built for COIN/CT from equipment to training to personnel. E.g., a strong HUMINT element with the capability to blend in local environments and rally the local populace. The equipment should comprise of MRAPs, AFVs, utility helicopters, attack helicopters, and dedicated fixed-wing CAS aircraft.

IMO a Pakistan army reserve similar to Canadian army reserves or US army reserves is needed as well. Have a million strong reserve army made up of civilians who have been given basic training and preferably have their own weapons already or state can give them weapons. Instead of paying them we can make it so reserve soldiers get to pay half the tax normal civilians pay. And we can require them to attend trainings every month or get deployed for a total of 1 month out of a year. We can easily raise a reserve army of 1 million + Pakistanis who already have their own weapons and it can help us a lot during war and won’t be a burden on our economy since we aren’t paying them anything just allowing them to pay less taxes

 

[GumNaam]

This question is similar to the question If someone raise objection about the existence of FC and Rangers while we do have Army ....

simple answer to your question is Pakistan Coast Guards fall under the category of Civil Armed Forces same as FC KPK and Balochistan or Sindh and Punjab Rangers and it is part of Ministry of Interior. Its role is also limited to the specific areas mention in Pakistan Coast Guard Act 1973

OTOH PMSA fall under Ministry of Defence [Link] and responsible for the implementation of National and International Laws at Sea from Contiguous Zone till Exclusive Economic Zone

In simple words CG are more of a Land Force then Seagoing Pakistan Maritime Security Agency.

Pakistan Marines are totally different then the both PMSA and Coast Guard

Agreed. Pakistan Marine Corp is not a paramilitary organization, it IS an integrated part & parcel of a military branch, i.e. Pakistan Navy. Furthermore, it is the Navy's offensive land force where its focus is on taking enemy shores through amphibious assaults and then handing it over to the Pakistan Army. It is not a force that is meant to hold enemy territory yet. As the size and scope of naval operations and goals grow, Pakistan Marine Corp will organically grow with it. But rest assured it is not neglected by any means, their deployments are trained by the SSGN and are provided all the best weapons, equipment & platforms necessary for amphibious assaults and routinely work in tandem with the SSGN.

 

[Great Janjua]

First of all, merge rangers, FC plus GB scouts into the National guard, hand over the Coast guard to the navy, make the marines a proper offensive force or else stop calling them marines.

This would in turn cause more reliable use of money and resources. we are making things complicated just because we are stubborn.

 

[Super Falcon]

Pak should consider more budget for navy than army let develop other forces

First of all, merge rangers, FC plus GB scouts into the National guard, hand over the Coast guard to the navy, make the marines a proper offensive force or else stop calling them marines.

This would in turn cause more reliable use of money and resources. we are making things complicated just because we are stubborn.

Fully agreed to ur formula

 

[EternalMortal]

National Guard (Pakistan) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We actually do have a National guard (NG). It's made of territorial army forces (Mujahid) & local militias that operate under provinces during peace time (Janbaz).

My ideas:

1) Convert FC into a border patrol & intelligence unit. Merge the extra units into Rangers. Keep the Rangers current function as a law & order agency & expand to all provinces/territories. I like their names so I hope they keep them lol.

2) Remove Janbaz force from NG & put it under defense ministry directly. They can help NMDA during national disasters like floods, earthquakes, etc. During war put it under command of regular forces.

3) Convert Mujahid force into army component of NG & coast guard (+ PMSA too???) into navy component. Add airforce branch. NG will focus on COIN/CT. Put it directly under defence minister SEPARATE from conventional armed forces. However, Chief of NG should take part in JCSC meetings. He can be put officially under CJCSC during war time against another country.

4) Raise dedicated reserves for armed forces

 

[Super Falcon]

We can arm them with few existing weapons

Al Zarrar light weight tanks
Mohafiz apcs
Buy used cargo planes comes cheap CN 235
few small ships which we r building for MSA
greatly enhance their perfomances

First of all, merge rangers, FC plus GB scouts into the National guard, hand over the Coast guard to the navy, make the marines a proper offensive force or else stop calling them marines.

This would in turn cause more reliable use of money and resources. we are making things complicated just because we are stubborn.

Yes too many forces but no clear path

For instance i saw coast guard was checking cars on motor highway it is not their jurifiction

There name itself say guards of coast but they were on highways
Pak must neutralise un necsary forces from un necesary work