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PAK FA vs F22 Raptor : A Detailed Analasis

Okay CAPTAIN AMERICA lets start thing off:


The Mig-31, and SU-30 were by far the most advanced fighters/interceptors not the Mig-25 like you stated.


Lets look at your link:






First off transistors were available but vacuum tubes were prefered because of EMP waves. Mind you, this is the 1960's and 1970's we are talking about, in any case the vacuum tubes were replaced long, long ago.







If the rivets were not exposed to drag then there is no problem. Obviously you don't see ribets sticking out on newer Russian aircraft.




The Mig-25 had better visibility then the SR-71. It was also an interceptor which means a bubble canopy was not essential. Moreover, the Mig-31 has slighly better visibility esspecially with the intakes moved back, and lastly Russian aircraft have used bubble canopies for decaded--example SU-27.






This is a good thing.







Forbidden because the harder the engines were pushed the sooner they would need an overhaul, in any case pilots still flew past mach 2.8.






The Mig-25's cousin used the much improved D-30F6 engines. And no, modern Russian engines don not overheat.








Almost trippled that in the Mig-31, and modern Russian fighters have extreemly high combat radius', over 960 miles for the SU-30 class fighters and as much as 1200 miles for the SU-35.







It was still lighter then the SR-71, the problem of weight was addressed in the Mig-31 with the use of more aluminum and titanium.








The first part just says the elimination of the ejection seat was a rumor (good thing) and that the Mig-25s ejection seat holds a world record at being able to work at mach 2.67.

Another good thing








This is not a bad thing, that is damn high.







This is incorect, the Mig-25 set an altitude record of 121,000 feet, so it would be able to fly as high or higher then the SR-71.









Everything besides detecting targets past 1,640 feet is a good thing, the problem of not being able to detect targets past 1,640 was also solved, these days Russian aircraft can detect extreemly low flying aircraft and well as map ground targets.








It's was not a fighter, it was a highs speed, high altitude interceptor that relied on BVR (beyond visual Range) combat; moreover, it used its speed and altitude not its manuverability.

If we need maneuverability we will use Sukhois and Migs which are capable of 9+ G's.








This is why the Mig-31 used 16% titanium and 33% aluminum, so the problem, if you want to call it that, was solved.




So you see much of what was in the link was not bad. Moreover, you still have a fascination with degrading Russian aircraft by finding the smallest things to complain about. I could do the same with American aircraft but i'm more mature than you are.





Oviously now you know we don't.


Your fasination with pointing out negatives are like a bad stutter, so let me try to cure your stutter by looking at just some of posstives from the Mig-25/31.

The HUD displayed radar information, a moving map, and the radar control panel which was a first in any aircraft.

The aircraft came with the first PESA.

The aircraft came with a very advanced data link, that was able to coordinate attacks, assign and track multiple targets, give the pilots and ground control to ability to communicate and it anticipated deceptive maneuvers. It was also one of the first aircaft with data-link

It was able to reach a record 121,000 ft


And it was able to fly past mach 2.8

I spent some time in the USSR, one of the things I remember was them using vacuum tubes in there data processing equipment, not sure you could even call them computers. This was long after vacuum tubes were obsolete in the USA.

"Bridging the Semi-conductor Gap

Taking semi-conductors as an example, three stages can be identified in the transfer process. The Soviets were able to import or manufacture small laboratory quantities of semi-conductors from an early date. What they could not do, as in many other technologies, was mass produce components with high quality characteristics. This situation is described by Dr. Lara Baker, a Soviet computer expert, before Congress:

The Soviet system in preproduction can manage to produce a few of almost any product they want, provided they are willing to devote the resources to it. The best example of this would be the Soviet 'civilian' space program, in which they managed to put people in orbit before the United States did, but at a high cost.

In the area of serial production, that is, the day to day production of large quantities of a product, the differences between the two systems become most obvious. Serial production is the Achilles heel of the Soviet bloc. Especially in high technology areas, the big problem the Soviets have is quality assurance they count products, not quality products. This is the area where the Soviets exhibit weakness and need the most help.
''
Interesting article
http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/chapter_04.htm
 
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I spent some time in the USSR, one of the things I remember was them using vacuum tubes in there data processing equipment, not sure you could even call them computers. This was long after vacuum tubes were obsolete in the USA.

"Bridging the Semi-conductor Gap

Taking semi-conductors as an example, three stages can be identified in the transfer process. The Soviets were able to import or manufacture small laboratory quantities of semi-conductors from an early date. What they could not do, as in many other technologies, was mass produce components with high quality characteristics. This situation is described by Dr. Lara Baker, a Soviet computer expert, before Congress:

The Soviet system in preproduction can manage to produce a few of almost any product they want, provided they are willing to devote the resources to it. The best example of this would be the Soviet 'civilian' space program, in which they managed to put people in orbit before the United States did, but at a high cost.

In the area of serial production, that is, the day to day production of large quantities of a product, the differences between the two systems become most obvious. Serial production is the Achilles heel of the Soviet bloc. Especially in high technology areas, the big problem the Soviets have is quality assurance they count products, not quality products. This is the area where the Soviets exhibit weakness and need the most help.
''
Interesting article
CHAPTER IV: Soviets Buy into the 21st Century

If you are refering to the MiG-25, yes the majority of the on-board avionics were based on vacuum-tube technology, not solid-state electronics. Although they represented aging technology, vacuum tubes were actually more tolerant of temperature extremes, thereby removing the need for providing complex environmental controls inside the avionics bays. In addition, the vacuum tubes were easy to replace in remote northern airfields where sophisticated transistor parts might not have been readily available. As with most Soviet aircraft, the MiG-25 was designed to be as rugged as possible. Moreover, the use of vacuum tubes makes the aircraft's systems more resistant to an electromagnetic pulse, for example after a nuclear blast. Keep in mind that the MiG-25 was designed during the cold war when there was fear of thermo-nuclear war. Of course, this in no way affected performance. Thanks to the use of vacuum tubes, the MiG-25P's original Smerch-A (Tornado, NATO reporting name 'Foxfire') radar had enormous power — about 600 kilowatts.

The Soviets always proved with their ingenuity that things can be done much more easily without compromising performance. Another example is the MiG-21. The rivets on the aircraft weren't perfect where it didn't matter. But no one cares as "it doesn't matter". It was still Mach 2 capable. The aircraft was refined where it mattered the most and this is what accounted for it's low unit and maintainance costs compared to other European and American fighters of the time. Now can we please keep the discussion to the topic?
 
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If you are refering to the MiG-25, yes the majority of the on-board avionics were based on vacuum-tube technology, not solid-state electronics. Although they represented aging technology, vacuum tubes were actually more tolerant of temperature extremes, thereby removing the need for providing complex environmental controls inside the avionics bays. In addition, the vacuum tubes were easy to replace in remote northern airfields where sophisticated transistor parts might not have been readily available. As with most Soviet aircraft, the MiG-25 was designed to be as rugged as possible. Moreover, the use of vacuum tubes makes the aircraft's systems more resistant to an electromagnetic pulse, for example after a nuclear blast. Keep in mind that the MiG-25 was designed during the cold war when there was fear of thermo-nuclear war. Of course, this in no way affected performance. Thanks to the use of vacuum tubes, the MiG-25P's original Smerch-A (Tornado, NATO reporting name 'Foxfire') radar had enormous power — about 600 kilowatts.

The Soviets always proved with their ingenuity that things can be done much more easily without compromising performance. Another example is the MiG-21. The rivets on the aircraft weren't perfect where it didn't matter. But no one cares as "it doesn't matter". It was still Mach 2 capable. The aircraft was refined where it mattered the most and this is what accounted for it's low unit and maintainance costs compared to other European and American fighters of the time. Now can we please keep the discussion to the topic?

I was in the USSR back in the days of the cold war the real reason was the soviets did not the ability to make transistors of good quality in quanity nor would the west sell them to the soviets even if they could have afforded them.

As I remember a ruble was worth 77 cents at the Goverment Exchange but was worth up to 20 rubles on the black market. You could sell a pair of Blue Jeans for 200 rubles.

You really cant belive every thing the Russia tell you.
 
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Excuse me, but one of the things the U.S. discovered when defecting Soviet pilot Victor Belenko landed his MiG-25 in Japan in 1976 was that the Russians had surpassed the West in vacuum-tube development. Russian tubes were tougher than Western ones and could handle high-power currents that U.S. tubes and transistorized circuits could not. I believe the U.S. copied this technology for use in its own electronic warfare systems - a rare example of the West reverse-engineering Soviet-bloc technology.

I also recall that the vacuum tubes available in the local hobby shop in the 1980s were made in Russia, not the U.S. or Japan.
 
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Excuse me, but one of the things the U.S. discovered when defecting Soviet pilot Victor Belenko landed his MiG-25 in Japan in 1976 was that the Russians had surpassed the West in vacuum-tube development. Russian tubes were tougher than Western ones and could handle high-power currents that U.S. tubes and transistorized circuits could not. I believe the U.S. copied this technology for use in its own electronic warfare systems - a rare example of the West reverse-engineering Soviet-bloc technology.

I also recall that the vacuum tubes available in the local hobby shop in the 1980s were made in Russia, not the U.S. or Japan.

I dont have any doubt that the Russians made good vacuum tubes, they would have to be to be used in Jet Fighters.

We used to allow the USSR to steal american technology. We knew they would get it eventually.

"According to the book At the Abyss: An Insider's History of the Cold War by Thomas Reed - who at the time was a member of President Ronald Reagan's National Security Council - France shared vital intelligence with the US about Russia's technology stealing in 1981. The French had recruited a KGB agent who was responsible for evaluating Western technology. Named 'Farewell' by his handlers, the agent had access to the KGB's Technology Directorate, which was stealing Western technology to study and copy. France revealed just how far the KGB had penetrated Western labs, companies and government agencies. Crucially, it also revealed the Directorate's technology wish list of things to obtain. Now that the West knew about what was happening, what should they do about it? Reagan asked Bill Casey, his Director of Central Intelligence, for ideas. The plan he hatched allowed the KGB to steal whatever it liked - after certain subtle modifications had been made.

From this point on, stolen microprocessors would for some reason spontaneously fail months or even years after deployment. Stolen operating systems and applications contained time-delayed bugs that would make vital computers malfunction after months of perfect service. US intelligence also allowed the Soviets to steal faked 'secrets' about stealth and space defence technologies in an attempt to have them incorporated pointlessly into military projects.

In the early 1980s, the Russians were constructing a trans-Siberian oil pipeline, and needed an automated system to properly manage it. Softening attitudes allowed them to legitimately purchase older models of computers on the open market. They then approached the American authorities for permission to buy the necessary software. When the US refused, the KGB stole the application. However, the software they stole had been doctored to go haywire after a while. It would open valves unexpectedly and set pressures too high for the pipeline's welds. When the explosion came, US seismologists measured the blast at three kilotons.

According to Reed's book, the Soviets were now unsure which of their key systems they could trust. During 1984 and 1985, the US consolidated their position by arresting and expelling large numbers of suspected KGB agents, effectively stemming the flow of technology and intelligence. With domestic computers seriously underpowered, stolen Western technology randomly poisoned and President Reagan announcing his ambitious 'Star Wars' missile defence shield, the USSR now faced uncertainty as a second-class superpower. With the country's infrastructure falling into disarray, people were beginning to voice dissent, as were politicians such as Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin. The USSR was starting to disintegrate - and decades of stealing Western technology instead of growing a native Soviet computing industry was partly responsible."
Declassified: The Secrets Of Soviet Computing | PC Plus

Now the Chinese are stealing the technology that the USSR stole in the first place.
 
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If you are refering to the MiG-25, yes the majority of the on-board avionics were based on vacuum-tube technology, not solid-state electronics. Although they represented aging technology, vacuum tubes were actually more tolerant of temperature extremes, thereby removing the need for providing complex environmental controls inside the avionics bays. In addition, the vacuum tubes were easy to replace in remote northern airfields where sophisticated transistor parts might not have been readily available. As with most Soviet aircraft, the MiG-25 was designed to be as rugged as possible. Moreover, the use of vacuum tubes makes the aircraft's systems more resistant to an electromagnetic pulse, for example after a nuclear blast. Keep in mind that the MiG-25 was designed during the cold war when there was fear of thermo-nuclear war. Of course, this in no way affected performance. Thanks to the use of vacuum tubes, the MiG-25P's original Smerch-A (Tornado, NATO reporting name 'Foxfire') radar had enormous power — about 600 kilowatts.

The Soviets always proved with their ingenuity that things can be done much more easily without compromising performance. Another example is the MiG-21. The rivets on the aircraft weren't perfect where it didn't matter. But no one cares as "it doesn't matter". It was still Mach 2 capable. The aircraft was refined where it mattered the most and this is what accounted for it's low unit and maintainance costs compared to other European and American fighters of the time. Now can we please keep the discussion to the topic?
Excuse me, but one of the things the U.S. discovered when defecting Soviet pilot Victor Belenko landed his MiG-25 in Japan in 1976 was that the Russians had surpassed the West in vacuum-tube development. Russian tubes were tougher than Western ones and could handle high-power currents that U.S. tubes and transistorized circuits could not. I believe the U.S. copied this technology for use in its own electronic warfare systems - a rare example of the West reverse-engineering Soviet-bloc technology.

I also recall that the vacuum tubes available in the local hobby shop in the 1980s were made in Russia, not the U.S. or Japan.
Just as the demise of electronic vacuum technology and its applications have been greatly exaggerated, so is its efficacy and performance claims in terms of avionics.

People must keep in mind that in aviation, weight is a penalty, meaning ANY item, from the belt buckle to the knobs to the cargo, humans or else, is a weight penalty, and I have yet to see any credible technical source comparing a vacuum tube avionics system against a solid state competitor and the tube system at least held its own, if not surpass its rival. Do most people know that the common cathode ray tube (CRT) is basically a vacuum tube device? A vacuum technology device such as a traveling wave tube (TWT) is best applicable for transmission in a radar system because of its bandwidth.

However...With the nature of radar detection, any target resolutions perform by vacuum based devices are grossly overkill because those target echoes are magnitudes lower on the power scale that smaller and more power efficient solid state devices are better for signal processing. Does that mean we cannot engineer a vacuum technology based device that will perform the same functions as its solid state rival? Yes...Certainly we can but the final product will be so large that its aviation weight penalty will override any deployment considerations.

Not only that, in some aviation situations, vacuum technology based devices simply cannot perform as well as its solid state rival...

Quo Vadis - AMRAAM?
n spite of all expectations Sparrow performed poorly in combat. The poor reliability of the vacuum tube guidance system, the limited aerodynamic manoeuvrability, the large minimum lock-on range, the inability of the conically scanning seeker to handle ground clutter and evasive manoeuvring by targets, all contributed to a kill probability (P[k]) of less than 10% per launch.
The highlighted is significant. Target resolutions here are not only altitude, speed and aspect angle to the seeking radar in the missile, but also involve changes and RATE of changes of those resolutions. The 'guidance' package contains the radar seeker section and the flight controls system (FLCS). As aircraft performance levels increases, so will those resolutions, their changes and RATE of changes. Solid state based electronics with their superior power efficiency level are inherently better at processing these rapid changes.

That is why citing the MIG-25's radar power output is highly misleading as we have no indicators of its performance at the second part of radar detection -- target signal processing. We finally know this after Belenko's defection. The MIG-25's radar will 'burn-through' many ECM transmissions but it is far inferior to Western systems in terms of target resolutions. Its vacuum technology based avionics are EMP resistant but that is a side benefit, not a primary consideration when they designed the aircraft. Soviet designers have no choice but to use vacuum technology based avionics because of the technological inferiority of the Soviet society. Coupling a solid state controller/driver to a TWT reduces by half the final device's size and power consumption without sacrificing bandwidth and add the benefit of superior signal processing. Soviet engineers were not stupid but they were also smart enough to realize that just because they can gain access to that solid state technology, by hook or by crook thanks to their clandestine services, that does not mean the Soviet technology foundation is capable of replicating the same solid state device with %100 fidelity.

The klystron tube is another vacuum technology device that is still very applicable and best when there is a need for high energy AND large bandwidth...

Forty years of research on the structure of matter - CERN Courier
SLAC is also the world's leader in developing high-power klystrons, which generate the microwaves used to accelerate electrons. Invented in 1937 at Stanford University, klystrons are also used to power radar arrays and for medical accelerators employed in cancer therapy.
But after the tubes are solid state devices for signal processing, be it from a radar echo or from a proton or from human body. A single frequency klystron tube, not solid state devices, is best for an EMP weapon.

So just because the US had to import vacuum tubes for our high end audio devices that does not mean we are 'behind' in vacuum technology based electronics. Please stop this exaggeration of the MIG-25's vacuum tube based avionics. It was good but only up to a point and Western avionics have been agile enough to bypass that point.
 
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Some basic knowledge of signal processing and how embedded systems schedule things would probably be useful here.
See: Nyquist?Shannon sampling theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The basic idea is that vaccum tubes just can't take data at a fast enough rate, resulting in aliasing and signal clutter.
See: Aliasing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, you can post process much of that out if you are clever, but still, can you do that post-processing efficiently enough with vacuum tubes not to harm reliability and keep it under weight?

No. Vacuum tubes just break too often....
See: ENIAC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, early vacuum tube computers had up times in the 10 minute range before something broke, or (literally) a bug crawled in to the system somewhere.
H96566k.jpg


Now, I am willing to admit that hardened vacuum tubes by the late 60's had improved to have average lifetimes in the tens of thousands of hours, but, using a little bit of logic, if I have 100,000 miniature vacuum tubes in a box, with an average lifespan of 10,000 hours, how long before one of them breaks? On average?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
The answer, a whole lot less time than 10,000 hours....A reliability engineer should probably chime in here, as my memory is a bit fuzzy on how to calculate these things.
 
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As to staying on topic, why? This is fun, and furthermore, the PAK FA is a plane that simply does not exist in it's final form, it would be like comparing the SU-35 to the YF-22 in 1990. One was a functional aircraft, the other was a pretty good idea.

Except that it wouldn't; since the YF-22 was a completely new, untested concept in 1990, while the PAK-FA is merely an attempt to copy the F-22's existing functionality at a lower price point. So, if I am to venture an opinion, (and indeed, that is all it would be) I think by 2020 the PAK-FA will be a viable aircraft done with most of it's testing, but much like the F-35 and F-22, plagued by production difficulties inherent in high performance stealth aircraft. We might see large numbers as a counter to the F-35 by 2030, but who has the money to push the production? India? Russia's wealth depends on gas exports, but many of its fields are "Mature" already, with no increase in fuel prices on the horizon due to the global economic downturn... I just don't see where the money is going to come from.
 
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At Raytheon, where engineering rules | Geek Gestalt - CNET News

Gallium nitride
One place that IDS is innovating is in the base compound used in high-performance semiconductors.

For a long time, silicon has been used for that base, but Raytheon wanted to find a better solution for phased-array radars, since it's the job of the semiconductor to amplify a signal from a military-strength radar system from hundreds of megahertz to tens or hundreds of gigahertz.

At IDS, Raytheon already has a long history of producing semiconductors and even has its own foundry. And not long ago, the company began investigating whether a new compound, gallium nitride, might offer an order-of-magnitude improvement over silicon. Underlying that decision were some of the properties of gallium nitride: it has a high bond gap, meaning it is good at withstanding electricity; it pulls a lot of heat out; and it is as sensitive as possible on the receiving side, while being as powerful as possible on the transmitting side.

According to IDS' Joe Smolko, Raytheon sees gallium nitride offering five to 10 times the power density advantages--in size and cost--over what is available today. That means it could produce higher power and smaller chips with a smaller dollar per watt of power cost.

Smolko said that gallium nitride's sweet spot is that it is far more efficient than current phased-array semiconductor compounds like gallium arsenide, particularly when it comes to heat generation.

And that means that Raytheon sees a huge opportunity to migrate the Navy and other users of phased-array radars away from legacy technology like gallium arsenide to gallium nitride.

Going back to Raytheon's companywide mandate to make its equipment forward- and backward-compatible, Smolko argued that new gallium nitride-based semiconductors will be able to be integrated into legacy radar systems, like those on the F-18 fighter jet. And Raytheon sees that the new compound's time has come--Smolko said gallium nitride is ready now for system insertion. And as such, it is now producing large amounts of the material in its semiconductor foundry in Tewskbury.
 
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Do you honestly think the entire capability of the F-22 is in the public domain?!?

I can tell you from fist hand knowledge that this is not the case, and that much of the strength of this 5th gen in software.

The last 5 years I have worked on intelligent optimization algorithms that take any number of parameters and return designs/layouts/configurations that are optimized to their fullest possible extent.
The men who have helped e develop my knowledge in this area (one of which works for a defense contractor mentioned in this very thread) has been a master in this domain since the early 90's.

It's obvious to the naked eye that the PAK FA was designed on a computer screen the same way gen 4 aircraft. It is in fact a 4th gen aircraft heavily (and skillfully) modified and updated.

A massive team of the worlds brightest software and intelligence engineers are behind current US aircraft technology, no other nation comes close at this point.

We can sit here and argue Russian propaganda, and pretend that the F-22 has no secrets, but we would be fooling ourselves. Planes have lived almost their entire service life under secrecy (SR-71).

Fact is, the propaganda regarding Russian air dominence and F-22 inferiority is just as much US as it is Russian propaganda. Defense contractors know that if the truth about the F-22's capability were known, they would be hard pressed to come up with reasons to continue funding R&D.

Tango has also made a good point, at this point there is no Raptor killer realized, contrary to what Russia and US defense contractors want us all to believe.
 
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To add to the post above, the Raptor is not alone. There is a whole bevy of classified aircraft above the Raptor in development.
 
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The F-22 Raptor, has met three air accidents even before going into service. This fighter jet is turning out to be the U.S. equivalent of the Russian Mig-21, the “widow maker.”.....

Hehehe
 
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Do you honestly think the entire capability of the F-22 is in the public domain?!?


Even capabilities of legacy fighters are often not know to the public.


I can tell you from fist hand knowledge that this is not the case, and that much of the strength of this 5th gen in software.



The strength of any aircraft is software.



The last 5 years I have worked on intelligent optimization algorithms that take any number of parameters and return designs/layouts/configurations that are optimized to their fullest possible extent.
The men who have helped e develop my knowledge in this area (one of which works for a defense contractor mentioned in this very thread) has been a master in this domain since the early 90's.



The same can be said for Sukhoi and all of the subcontracting companies such as NIIP, Satern and a host of other companies that have been around for decades.



It's obvious to the naked eye that the PAK FA was designed on a computer screen the same way gen 4 aircraft. It is in fact a 4th gen aircraft heavily (and skillfully) modified and updated.


It's obvious that is your opinion, it also obvious that the pak-fa prototype, the T-50-1; the same one you see in photographs is only an aerodynamic test bed, and is not fully optimized for 'LO', there is a minimum of at least 6 prototypes to be constructed with one close to completion. It is also reported that the final production model of the pak-fa will be very different from the T-50-1 model, even Mikhail Pogosyan has mentioned that things such as nozzles will likely be flat.

As for designing an aircraft by computer, all aircraft are designed with computers especially in today's age.

I also fail to see what is '4th' generation about the pak-fa, it is radically different to all '4th' generation aircraft in both appearance and avionics.

A massive team of the worlds brightest software and intelligence engineers are behind current US aircraft technology, no other nation comes close at this point.


And in Russia sukhoi assembles a bunch of bums with no experience :rolleyes: surly I do hope you know Russian specialists collaborated with Lockheed Martin in the F-35's development. Moreover, NPO Energomash sold General Dynamics, now Lockheed Martin, rocket engines. And in fact even Boing has an office in Russia that does design work for them. Clearly this demonstrates that they do come close.





We can sit here and argue Russian propaganda, and pretend that the F-22 has no secrets, but we would be fooling ourselves. Planes have lived almost their entire service life under secrecy (SR-71).


I will not debate cababilities of either aircraft, instead i will leave that to the fanboys. And where did you get the notion that the F-22 does not have secrets?
 
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Pak-FA_3D_Annotated_Dark_JPG.jpg


T-50 does not have S-ducts as shown on this drawing. Its a good example that all speculations worth nothing, lets wait when serial PAK FA will be ready and info on it will be released.
 
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