PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[SU-57E]

There is no only one super power the one and only Allah (SWT).

that is an honest and sensible post.

 

[Windjammer]

Here is a break down of IAF losses during the 1971 war on the Western front. The PAF log book is part of my forth coming article.

 

[pakpower]

Here is a break down of IAF losses during the 1971 war on the Western front. The PAF log book is part of my forth coming article.

Might be good for you.

 

[Windjammer]

Might be good for you.

I am sure you are also here for a reason.

 

[wangrong]

why J6 win mig21?

 

[normalindiancitizen]

A lot of things have happened since the 70s both in India and Pakistan. Psychologically whenever there are two warring or enemy states, the weaker( I mean economically and militarily) almost always tries to have an advantage in every field he can eg he will train his pilots to the extreme, he will invest more in devising better tactics , he will try to extract maximun out of each aircraft. Similarly, the stronger one tends to get complacent on some counts considering sheer numbers and technological superiority t be sufficient to over come the enemy, they may be sufficient, but the cost generally is much much higher than anticipated.
In the same way , the relationship between India and Pakistan has see sawed from one side to the other. A few points:

1. Pakistan has participated in far more foreign exercises than India and is likely to have more experience in western tactics, but this is no way to gauge how they will fare against indian tactics which are a combination of both russian and western tactics and no before any one argues, NO COUNTRY ever carried out its ACTUAL tactics during exercises.( RED FLAG). My point is while the worth of Pakistani pilot may be accepted internationally, India is still in the image forming stage and it is too early to prove anything, but this does not mean that Indian pilots are inferiorto Pakistani ones.

2. The fact that IAF is finding it difficult to recruit more pilots is mainly a testimony to the enormous economic succes that India has enjoyed in the recent past and the opening up of the private sector creating plenty of lucrative jobs outside. Also the IAF has not lowered its standards, which is why it does not accept all. The **** rejection rate may be high, but then so it was with the IAF til about 10-15 years ago.

3. Russian equipment is known to have problems operating in hot and humid conditions, but India has been operating them for so many years and has developped a few of its own measures to improve reliability.

4. The MIG 21 Bison is actually an extremely potent platform very much BVR capable and having some very good avionics integrated very effectively with all systems but they seem to always get discounted when the counting of good iaf aircraft take place.

5. IAF is upgrading many of their russian fleet, the mig 27,29 included. Now with all these aircraft added to the huge fleet of SU-30 and the MMRCA ( I am not even counting in the LCA) who do you think will have a numerical superiority in the future??

6. The large number of mig crashes have a reason which not many analysts have been able to pinpoint accurately. In the places where max operational training of pilots take place, the weather is not generally good( clouds, visibility etc) also majority of the old migs were pilotted by young pilots converting and carrying out operational training. Also they ARE an aging fleet. Also the MIG 21 and 27 are unforgiving in the low speed regime if you make mistakes. So now take a minor unserviceability add to that the relative in experience of the pilot, now add the bad weather add the lesser amount of avionics and ecovery aids and tell me that the combination is not chaotic. My point? its not only old technology!

Finally after this extremely long post. I want to ask one thing. Does any one REALLY think there will ever be an open air war between India and Pak in the future? I mean one odd interception of border violations , pilotless vehicles etc aside, Does any one really think we will go to war, I mean , who are we kidding, we both are nuclear capable, so what does it matter who is stronger???

 

[Red Dwarf]

Does any one REALLY think there will ever be an open air war between India and Pak in the future? I mean one odd interception of border violations , pilotless vehicles etc aside, Does any one really think we will go to war, I mean , who are we kidding, we both are nuclear capable, so what does it matter who is stronger???

Forget terrorism now. The problem on Kashmir cannot be resolved through talks. If anyone thinks it will; then they will be the dumbest in the world. Only option left is to continue like this, which i don't know how long or an ultimate war. And that will be the last war both will have to face.(if both are really existing).

 

[Sapper]

One perception in Indians that i have seen and experienced first hand is that they think that Pakistani's are war-mongers; we are not. Most of us are more docile and live-and-let-live than you can imagine, although i admit that there are some black sheep among us who want war no matter what.

That said, I must also point out that although we do not want WAR with India, we do not perceive India as a friend either, we are enemies, thanks to thousands of years of religious conflicts compounded with partition and post partition conflicts. No one will admit this but we are actually SCARED of India, not because of its economy or its military, but because every Pakistani (and i really mean every Pakistani) still feels that India has not wholeheartedly accepted an "INDEPENDENT" Pakistan reality. And, although you have the luxury to enjoy and cherish your freedom and independence, ours is constantly under threat, directly or indirectly, and we still have to strive very hard to maintain our independence and freedom ; economy, prosperity and culture comes afterwards ...

I pray with sincerity that their should not and must not be any war with India in future, but we are constantly reminded that sooner or later our sovereignty may be ambushed. Thus we all prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[ghazi52]

One perception in Indians that i have seen and experienced first hand is that they think that Pakistani's are war-mongers; we are not. Most of us are more docile and live-and-let-live than you can imagine, although i admit that there are some black sheep among us who want war no matter what.

That said, I must also point out that although we do not want WAR with India, we do not perceive India as a friend either, we are enemies, thanks to thousands of years of religious conflicts compounded with partition and post partition conflicts. No one will admit this but we are actually SCARED of India, not because of its economy or its military, but because every Pakistani (and i really mean every Pakistani) still feels that India has not wholeheartedly accepted an "INDEPENDENT" Pakistan reality. And, although you have the luxury to enjoy and cherish your freedom and independence, ours is constantly under threat, directly or indirectly, and we still have to strive very hard to maintain our independence and freedom ; economy, prosperity and culture comes afterwards ...

I pray with sincerity that their should not and must not be any war with India in future, but we are constantly reminded that sooner or later our sovereignty may be ambushed. Thus we all prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Regards,
Sapper

I salute you for such a sensible post,


Regards

 

[normalindiancitizen]

I agree whole heartedly with Sapper about enemity and preparing for the worst. See , vested interests on both side HAVE been playing up this enemity and making it into something it is not. When I was a young boy I used to think that a Pakistani was a tall bearded blood thirsty scoundrel who killed innocent women and children!!! Point being if a ten year old thinks that there must be something wrong. I am sure it would have been similar in Pakistan. It is the internet which has opened up avenues. I also salute Sapper for his sincerity in admitting that most Pakistanis are SCARED of India. Now if this be true, then I believe it must be India who has to work to dispel this fear. Having said this, I wont comment on the political, or realistic possibility in this ever happening.
I dont agree with Red Dwarf in the fact that the Kashmir issue cannot be resolved through talks. It may or may not be. But a war takes a lot decision making and escalation matrices are made. I frankly do not think any realistic commander will ever WILLINGLY start an ALL OUT war KNOWING fully well that it may become nuclear. Also I dont think India will EVER attempt to destroy Pakistan. India is NOT such a nation. All the posturing aside, I believe this to be a fact.
And finally a factor which MAY prove to be common to both in the future is TERRORISM. This soon will be the single most potent and terrifying enemy that we both will have to face. Now I am ready to believe that some terrorism on either side may be sponsored by the other, bit not all. And the terrorism(actual not sponsored) is only going to be on the rise. Now whether India and Pakistan join hands or not on this only time will tell, but it is a problem which can be most efficiently tackled by joining hands.

After all this can some one tell me more about the latest Pakistani acquistions in the field of Military aviation? other than the jf-17. ??

 

[Windjammer]

Agreed to what some members are saying here and may sanity prevail,

But when one side initiates such terminologies as,

Cold Start, Surgical Strikes and Hot Pursuits, then the other side will no doubt keep it's guard up and prepare for all eventualities.

 

[normalindiancitizen]

Wind jammer those are just terms, and by the way many countries use them and yes it is the ' in thing ' now in India to use international terms, thats all. Does not mean we mean to start a war, but does not mean we are not prepared either, but as far as those terms go , they are just that, 'fashionable' terms.

 

[Windjammer]

Wind jammer those are just terms, and by the way many countries use them and yes it is the ' in thing ' now in India to use international terms, thats all. Does not mean we mean to start a war, but does not mean we are not prepared either, but as far as those terms go , they are just that, 'fashionable' terms.

Hope you can understand URDU.

 

[Hulk]

Agreed to what some members are saying here and may sanity prevail,

But when one side initiates such terminologies as,

Cold Start, Surgical Strikes and Hot Pursuits, then the other side will no doubt keep it's guard up and prepare for all eventualities.

All the policies you listed above are defensive and not offensive.

 

[gubbi]

All the policies you listed above are retaliatory and not pre-emptive.

Corrected.. for ya