PAF Scramble Time!!!

[EagleEyes]

What chopper, where.

Our buddy Venkat is lost by hearing this. I am pretty sure Google is not working for him anymore. I am still laughing the heck out of this incident. Flying Dhotis!

 

[Venkat]

Our buddy Venkat is lost by hearing this. I am pretty sure Google is not working for him anymore. I am still laughing the heck out of this incident. Flying Dhotis!

Webbie, if Google does work for you - mind posting a couple of links for me here?

I am willing to be educated

 

[EagleEyes]

Webbie, if Google does work for you - mind posting a couple of links for me here?

I am willing to be educated

Bhai jaan, do you really google everything?

Perhaps you should ask the flying dhotis in India? I am guessing they will surely have an answer to that. After all it was your interior minister wasn't he??

 

[MastanKhan]

Muradk,

Thanks for sharing with us the unabridged version of the events. The poor souls---just wanted to see things first hand.

I know why the gnat shot the heli down--it saw pakistani planes flying around it---he thought the pakistanis were providing it flight cover---there must be someone very important in it---that is why there are three sabre protecting it. The poor guy had very little time to decipher the situation---you made him do that

 

[Venkat]

Bhai jaan, do you really google everything?

Perhaps you should ask the flying dhotis in India? I am guessing they will surely have an answer to that. After all it was your interior minister wasn't he??

Webbie Janaab.

I can ofcourse challenge you or MuradK to produce atleast one published reference (either web or scanned document) to support the claim of this incident ever happening. That would really make me shut up and apologise.

but i just know neither of you can do it. So why bother?.

The easiest way to shoot down my counter points is ofcourse become overly sarcastic or simply delete my posts.

Have it your way.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Venkat,

What of the possibility that it was never reported - especially if it was downed due to friendly fire? I am not suggesting that is the case, but is it possible to state that every single incident that occurred in the war is a matter of public record?

 

[EagleEyes]

Venkat buddy, nobody really has to prove you anything. If you were really interested into the "Dhoti handover" case, you would research it by yourself, but then you wouldn't get any info from any where because its more than just an embarrassment. And the whole fact is that Indian Armed Forces is stupid enough to blame the case on Pakistan instead of their own pilot. It is an incident from the person who was there.. watching those dhotis in the helicopter, but then again you need to talk trash of "fog war" and accusing posters of "lying" rather than researching and asking questions through your own sources... but since you dont have any. I will be nice, but not too nice. Feel free to come to Karachi and couple of guys will see you around.

Anyways, i think we need to make a video on it.

 

[Muradk]

Muradk,

Thanks for sharing with us the unabridged version of the events. The poor souls---just wanted to see things first hand.

I know why the gnat shot the heli down--it saw pakistani planes flying around it---he thought the pakistanis were providing it flight cover---there must be someone very important in it---that is why there are three sabre protecting it. The poor guy had very little time to decipher the situation---you made him do that

you took the words of my mouth That was actually the reason, We were around it not shooting it and they thought it was Pakistani , I still remember the the Chopper was white and it said MS something in RED I dont remember. I am sure the ministry would have record of it if someone has connections in the Interior MIN of India. I have all the news papers when the war started and till it ended, Indians never mentioned anything but a official statement was issued to AHQ thats it, Like I said our OC informed us. I know there are people on this forum who think I sit all day long and make one good story. There are 2 or 3 people on this forum who are in touch with MM Alam Ask him I think it is Timmy our member who is related to MM Alam.

 

[Venkat]

Venkat,

What of the possibility that it was never reported - especially if it was downed due to friendly fire? I am not suggesting that is the case, but is it possible to state that every single incident that occurred in the war is a matter of public record?

Agnostic, Fair question - let me try to answer why it is not a possibillty

1. Friendly fire incidents within the IAF have been admitted earlier.
2. MuradK initially said there was a complaint - if there was a complaint, why wouldnt the PAF not take advantage of it?
3. The incident is not mentioned in the official list of PAF claims (the Official list FYI lists all Indian losses - even those due to incidents and those admitted by India as due to accidents)
4. The India of 1971 didnt really have non-military helicopters around that ministers could take joyrides around.
5. If it was a military helicopter lost - you will find it mentioned in the Official History of the 71 war - which incidentally was not published but leaked. It revelaed many facts that were not known before. There is no motive for that document to suppress this loss if any.
5. After the loss of the civilian airplane in 65, no sane air force official would have allowed a civilian aircraft to go into the frontline unescorted.
6. Pakistan would not have let go of such a propaganda point .
7. There is no Interior Minister in the Indian government.
8. Official indian histories of 65 mentioned all civilian losses. and so would the 71 histories as well.

 

[Venkat]

you took the words of my mouth That was actually the reason, We were around it not shooting it and they thought it was Pakistani , I still remember the the Chopper was white and it said MS something in RED I dont remember. I am sure the ministry would have record of it if someone has connections in the Interior MIN of India. I have all the news papers when the war started and till it ended, Indians never mentioned anything but a official statement was issued to AHQ thats it, Like I said our OC informed us. I know there are people on this forum who think I sit all day long and make one good story. There are 2 or 3 people on this forum who are in touch with MM Alam Ask him I think it is Timmy our member who is related to MM Alam.

Very convenient explanation

If India made an official statement to your AHQ , you would think they would keep quiet, they would have gone to the rooftops announcing the stupid mistakes India did.

There are two people genuinely laughing their ***** off here. One is you, the other is me. The rest dont have a clue.

 

[Muradk]

Son
I have been nice to you but white is white and black is black. Dont want to except it fine I couldnt care less, You have been given a lot of leverage by the mods on a Pakistani forum. Being here is a privilege not your right. So start acting smart before I give you a couple of days of rest.

 

[blain2]

Very convenient explanation

If India made an official statement to your AHQ , you would think they would keep quiet, they would have gone to the rooftops announcing the stupid mistakes India did.

There are two people genuinely laughing their ***** off here. One is you, the other is me. The rest dont have a clue.

Venkat, Yo have 3 options. Ignore the story, buy the story or prove it otherwise.

This back and forth is going nowhere and MuradK could spin quite a few other really interesting stories if he wanted to, but the one he has shared is not too unbelievable. Fratricide (if you can qualify this as one) is a fact of war. Not sure why you find it so impossible?

 

[blain2]

Agnostic, Fair question - let me try to answer why it is not a possibillty

1. Friendly fire incidents within the IAF have been admitted earlier.
2. MuradK initially said there was a complaint - if there was a complaint, why wouldnt the PAF not take advantage of it?
3. The incident is not mentioned in the official list of PAF claims (the Official list FYI lists all Indian losses - even those due to incidents and those admitted by India as due to accidents)
4. The India of 1971 didnt really have non-military helicopters around that ministers could take joyrides around.
5. If it was a military helicopter lost - you will find it mentioned in the Official History of the 71 war - which incidentally was not published but leaked. It revelaed many facts that were not known before. There is no motive for that document to suppress this loss if any.
5. After the loss of the civilian airplane in 65, no sane air force official would have allowed a civilian aircraft to go into the frontline unescorted.
6. Pakistan would not have let go of such a propaganda point .
7. There is no Interior Minister in the Indian government.
8. Official indian histories of 65 mentioned all civilian losses. and so would the 71 histories as well.

Leaking of history does not mean that its all-inclusive. Its only as accurate as those who are willing to talk about it and happen to share it.

As to your point #5 (the second one), how do you propose IAF would have stopped a helicopter from flying into a theater where hostilities were ongoing? We have seen cases of fratricide by the USAF against 2 UH-60 Blackhawks as recently as the gulf war, so not sure what type of capability IAF had back then for it to manage the airspace better in times of hostilities?

6. Pakistan has let go of many other things in the past that others may not have. I can draw very many parallels here but will not as it will derail the thread.

7. Word play. The individuals may have belonged to the home ministry or some other dept of the Indian Government.

Again, own goal is not a very far-fetched possibility. We have had cases of it (PA AAA shooting down PAF aircraft).

 

[Venkat]

Venkat, Yo have 3 options. Ignore the story, buy the story or prove it otherwise.

This back and forth is going nowhere and MuradK could spin quite a few other really interesting stories if he wanted to, but the one he has shared is not too unbelievable. Fratricide (if you can qualify this as one) is a fact of war. Not sure why you find it so impossible?

Sure mate, I dont buy the story. I will say it is wrong because I know it is wrong. Now it is upto others to prove me wrong. Show me the evidence.

(You can ignore my post, buy my post as true, or provide evidence to say it is wrong)

 

[Venkat]

Leaking of history does not mean that its all-inclusive. Its only as accurate as those who are willing to talk about it and happen to share it.

As to your point #5 (the second one), how do you propose IAF would have stopped a helicopter from flying into a theater where hostilities were ongoing? We have seen cases of fratricide by the USAF against 2 UH-60 Blackhawks as recently as the gulf war, so not sure what type of capability IAF had back then for it to manage the airspace better in times of hostilities?

6. Pakistan has let go of many other things in the past that others may not have. I can draw very many parallels here but will not as it will derail the thread.

7. Word play. The individuals may have belonged to the home ministry or some other dept of the Indian Government.

Again, own goal is not a very far-fetched possibility. We have had cases of it (PA AAA shooting down PAF aircraft).

All civilian aircraft have to take permission from IAF before they go into battle areas. No civvie flights happen in times of war in battle areas. I told you about the story in 65 .

1971 is not the same as 2008. All helicopters going around in battle areas would have been military helicotpers. if they were , you will find the loss acknowledged in the official military history . and it is not mentioned.