PAF ramping up Special Operation Capabilities

[Signalian]

Does PAF has the means to deliver SSW deep behind enemy lines? You cant even compare US with PAK.

Ofcourse it does.

Pak SF are trained by US SF.

 

[Inception-06]

we can come to the mechanics, structure and procedures later but

without the prior knowledge which is strictly need to know we cant be sure about numbers. thats a first

but for simplicity and argument sake lets set up a premise and parameters,. this way our debates and posts will look smarter, informed and above average too. so think and research. a

for a start lets hypothesis that
there are 100 bases and unspecified funds are allocated

you are saying 5000 as a starting point,. that is 5000 special forces personnel trained for combat.
do you have the idea of how many support personnel will be needed to help raise and maintain that force?
admin, catering, house keeping, storage, medical, housing and equipment and then security of that all staff and equipment and storage of the equipment and the, vehicles,m armored, transport, their fuel their mechanics, the armory, its maintenance and security and the security of the entire setup. this is just a Birdseye view of the requirements for raising and maintaining a 5K "minimum" force for base security. (with the premise that funds have been already allocated from somewhere else for this).

now the second part regarding vague statement, need of snipers with "good" guns and "large" numbers. explain why we need snipers, what is a good gun? and what is a large number in respect of 5,000 total personnel and why?
base security? infiltration/ extraction missions? retrieving downed pilots? the statement itself is so broad and vague that I cant decide where to start. please look up the composition of a typical special services team belonging to the air forces, how many are they, what equipment they got, what is their mission and how they differ from the special forces of other arms of the military. we need to be clear how similar or different we want them to be to SSG.

finally. there are always tiers among the military forces with the "special" tag . they are all better equipped, trained, funded and experienced than the regular troops for a start.
they are physically more fit and mentally prepared for more challenging tasks for a start and then.. they have their own grades and some of them are just a handful that are specialists and best among the already best bunch.
or regular forces now have platoons trained for urban and Close quarter combat, then there are FC and Light commando brigades that are trained at a higher level and then there are the commandos belonging to all 3 forces that form the top tier. the bulk of the routine security and routine operations should be taken by the middle tier of the special forces, leaving the top tier operatives for hardest assignments.

The Problem of such posters is they never served in any Force or even read Books about tactis, strategy and training of a Force, you have given a exelent reply for such a day dreamer thx a lot for taking the time and worke to educate our Brothers here in PDF !

regards

Within few years you have raised number to 1500 and last batch was of 266 people so if we calculate I think PAF is definitely going for 5000 in fact more than that.

did you not get the point of @Irfan Baloch that 5000 is not possible with our economic situation and the funds which are available ! Our first goal is to imporve the security situation and rewrite/improve law and order in every corner of Pakistan, so that our economy can rise and our foolk can shine !

@Zarvan you want induct 5000 SSW while our so called elite police and CTD units in punjab have even failed in that so called exercise at the Punjab university ! We must first handle this rack tack afghan style units !

 

[Kharral]

There are already different Anti-terror forces in pakistan.

SSW is useful to PAF if :

1. 4 X platoons are dedicated towards and trained to take out enemy S400 units by going behind eneny lines during war

2. 6 X platoons are dedicated towards and trained to take out enemy major airfields and disrupt enemy Air Comand ops during war.

3. 4 X platoons are dedicated and trained to take out enemy command and control HQ, AWACS, senior officers etc during war.

Sitting inside pakistan and performing base perimeter security is wastage of SSW during war.

I have on multiple occasions wanted to comment exactly the same for a long time now but refrained thinking it's better staying mum as the planners of this force would definitely have thought on the same lines as well. This ought to be a small force of highly trained men & women of strategic importance. These operatives should purely be responsible for war time espionage in enemy territory operating as sleeper cells during peace time & counter espionage of similar nature at home not be relegated to counter terrorism operations. The threat from areal assets around our borders is getting bigger & bigger day by day & it's best countered on ground as the air space is well defended with sophisticated Radars ( both ground & areal ) and SAMs. If we are to dissuade our neighbour from carrying any surgical attacks that could well lead to a major war then our best chance is to do a soft kill ( not physically destroying or damaging air & critical supportive ground assets in a way that there is no debris left on ground, ie playing with the software of Ground Radars or other such assets ) when the planes are still on ground and not already in air.

 

[Kharral]

And how are you planning on sending SSW behind enemy lines? Catapulting?

The best option would be to have a certain number of assets already present in enemy territory during peacetime with assignments on rotation basis. This is where ISI comes in & it would be better if the traditional assets ( like Kashmiri Militants or other such groups ) are avoided in planting assets in enemy territory. Build logistics in peace time.
War or Battle time operations are different & would present their own challenges & opportunities. Any conflict would be short & swift considering the nature of 2 countries. The objective must be to undertake operations that would prevent any misadventure or act of belligerence that could result in a major escalation.

Now the methods of infiltration & exfiltration are plenty. From Land, Air to Sea through own & third party borders.
Exploit severe weather conditions like the annual floods in plains at the mouth of the rivers & nalluh's in Punjab & severe winter conditions up north.
Employ HAHO method for 1 or 2 operatives at a time ( best employed in Cholistan & desert area bordering Sind although this one is still pretty risky. Use Helis at low level up north. Employ sea based methods in both open & close to shores especially the marshes disguised as fishermen. Use rivers for underwater infiltration when they are calm but not shallow. Infiltration & Exfiltration out of all our neighbouring countries except China off course isn't that hard as you might think.

We are the biggest contributor to UN missions all over the world. We have assets stationed abroad serving in a lot of friendly countries in both deputation & post retirement ( private adventures as well ) capacity. We have a huge a diaspora all around the world.

Employing cover is also manageable.

The harder part is to have the logistics in order & the tools and gadgets ( electronic stuff ) required for the trade in place in enemy territory & their clandestine use without the risk of being caught.

 

[Signalian]

I have on multiple occasions wanted to comment exactly the same for a long time now but refrained thinking it's better staying mum as the planners of this force would definitely have thought on the same lines as well. This ought to be a small force of highly trained men & women of strategic importance. These operatives should purely be responsible for war time espionage in enemy territory operating as sleeper cells during peace time & counter espionage of similar nature at home not be relegated to counter terrorism operations. The threat from areal assets around our borders is getting bigger & bigger day by day & it's best countered on ground as the air space is well defended with sophisticated Radars ( both ground & areal ) and SAMs. If we are to dissuade our neighbour from carrying any surgical attacks that could well lead to a major war then our best chance is to do a soft kill ( not physically destroying or damaging air & critical supportive ground assets in a way that there is no debris left on ground, ie playing with the software of Ground Radars or other such assets ) when the planes are still on ground and not already in air.

I agree with you.

In Pakistan, the general psyche of defence forces is very different. Army gets priority, then PAF and in the end Navy (if someone remembers, wait we have a navy too).

The problem is that in case of war, even after formation of Joint Staff HQ and JSSC (Joint Services staff college), all three forces give priority to own missions rather than be available to extend support to other arms.The Army keeps screaming for air cover from PAF, whereas PAF conserves aircraft, fuel, ammo, pilots, spare parts for their own missions. PAF has to obey PA demands for C-130 and has to diverge these aircrafts for PA missions hampering its own cargo missions. PN has acquired aircraft from PAF and finally got own pilots to do the job lest PAF takes these aircrafts away in wartime through its own pilots.

In such cases, it was in PAF's best interest to make own spec ops force. In 1965, PA SSG was used to parachute into India to destroy airfields, thus helping PAF. In 1971, SSG was stretched thin in kashmir, West Pakistan and East Pakistan in PA missions. In 1980's, SSG was used in Soviet-Afghan war and then became an anti terror unit. Now its used in all ops around the country as well as against external threats.
PAF knows that in next war, it needed its own SSW to conduct operations necessary from Air Force point of view. Operations which required skilled commandos operating behind enemy lines to hamper enemy air operations.

There are numerous threats from enemy AF in case of war.

The enemy AF forms FOB (forward operating bases) and flies aircrafts form those locations. It disperses its aircrafts in numerous locations where runways, supply, weapons and spare parts are present to operate such aircraft in war time situations, similar to how PAF will disperse its aircraft to different points on M-2 Motorway and FOB's. Intel on location of enemy movement and aircraft dispersal at different FOB is crucial.

The Radar and SAM network is another target for SSW to clear the way for an imminent PAF operation in the vicinity of that area. Specially trained and infiltrated S-400 hunting teams are a must which have the ability to sabotage S-400 presenting threat to PAF ops within 24-48 hours of the war. Although enemy AWACS can do much of constant Radar work for enemy AF to operate, destruction of SAM's is a crucial blow to divert constant CAP's to affected areas.

The most common action is destruction or disabling the runways so the enemy AF cannot make to the skies but the appearance of many FOB and temporary airstrips renders the efficiency of such ops close to useless.

Destruction of fuel dumps as well as weapons storage facility delivers a devastating blow to enemy operations. SU30 can stay in air longer and also carries more weapons than any PAF fighter.

Assassination of top ranking enemy AF officials as well as experienced pilots is priority too as this delays many planning procedures/ops and a lethal plane without a killer-instinct pilot is just a fly in the sky.

The Heavy Lift Cargo aircrafts which deliver supplies to crucial areas in kashmir regions are a juicy target. They not only transfer troops but also weapons, supplies, medical equipment, spare parts etc in lesser time than ground transport.

Similarly disabling enemy Aircraft on the ground is important but the dispersal of aircrafts to different FOB's makes this task cumbersome and SSW can be employed to interrupt the flying of enemy Aircrafts in other ways.

From providing intel to destruction of enemy assets, SSW role is spread over a large domain to bring out favourable results for PAF in case of war.

 

[Zaheer ul Islam]

It's good to see more SSW being trained. As the are the need of the hour.
Just a question though, is there a specific reason for inducting woman in Special Ops forces. Are woman trained and housed together with their male colleagues or is there special facilities for them to use in Pakistan?

They are not SSW but the ones trained by SSW they are Ground Combater of PAF the security guys they have Women not SSW

It's good to see more SSW being trained. As the are the need of the hour.
Just a question though, is there a specific reason for inducting woman in Special Ops forces. Are woman trained and housed together with their male colleagues or is there special facilities for them to use in Pakistan?

They are not SSW but the ones trained by SSW they are Ground Combater of PAF the security guys they have Women not SSW

 

[Signalian]

The best option would be to have a certain number of assets already present in enemy territory during peacetime with assignments on rotation basis. This is where ISI comes in & it would be better if the traditional assets ( like Kashmiri Militants or other such groups ) are avoided in planting assets in enemy territory. Build logistics in peace time.
War or Battle time operations are different & would present their own challenges & opportunities. Any conflict would be short & swift considering the nature of 2 countries. The objective must be to undertake operations that would prevent any misadventure or act of belligerence that could result in a major escalation.

Now the methods of infiltration & exfiltration are plenty. From Land, Air to Sea through own & third party borders.
Exploit severe weather conditions like the annual floods in plains at the mouth of the rivers & nalluh's in Punjab & severe winter conditions up north.
Employ HAHO method for 1 or 2 operatives at a time ( best employed in Cholistan & desert area bordering Sind although this one is still pretty risky. Use Helis at low level up north. Employ sea based methods in both open & close to shores especially the marshes disguised as fishermen. Use rivers for underwater infiltration when they are calm but not shallow. Infiltration & Exfiltration out of all our neighbouring countries except China off course isn't that hard as you might think.

We are the biggest contributor to UN missions all over the world. We have assets stationed abroad serving in a lot of friendly countries in both deputation & post retirement ( private adventures as well ) capacity. We have a huge a diaspora all around the world.

Employing cover is also manageable.

The harder part is to have the logistics in order & the tools and gadgets ( electronic stuff ) required for the trade in place in enemy territory & their clandestine use without the risk of being caught.

you have given excellent points.

As for the highlighted part, ISI can take care of that and if thats not possible, then SSW operators can make any weapon from resources available to them. Resourceful contacts can also be found in enemy territory who can provide any required piece of equipment for a price.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Why are Special Forces operators wearing pilot helmets?

paratrooping i guess.

 

[Kharral]

I agree with you.

In Pakistan, the general psyche of defence forces is very different. Army gets priority, then PAF and in the end Navy (if someone remembers, wait we have a navy too).

The problem is that in case of war, even after formation of Joint Staff HQ and JSSC (Joint Services staff college), all three forces give priority to own missions rather than be available to extend support to other arms.The Army keeps screaming for air cover from PAF, whereas PAF conserves aircraft, fuel, ammo, pilots, spare parts for their own missions. PAF has to obey PA demands for C-130 and has to diverge these aircrafts for PA missions hampering its own cargo missions. PN has acquired aircraft from PAF and finally got own pilots to do the job lest PAF takes these aircrafts away in wartime through its own pilots.

In such cases, it was in PAF's best interest to make own spec ops force. In 1965, PA SSG was used to parachute into India to destroy airfields, thus helping PAF. In 1971, SSG was stretched thin in kashmir, West Pakistan and East Pakistan in PA missions. In 1980's, SSG was used in Soviet-Afghan war and then became an anti terror unit. Now its used in all ops around the country as well as against external threats.
PAF knows that in next war, it needed its own SSW to conduct operations necessary from Air Force point of view. Operations which required skilled commandos operating behind enemy lines to hamper enemy air operations.

There are numerous threats from enemy AF in case of war.

The enemy AF forms FOB (forward operating bases) and flies aircrafts form those locations. It disperses its aircrafts in numerous locations where runways, supply, weapons and spare parts are present to operate such aircraft in war time situations, similar to how PAF will disperse its aircraft to different points on M-2 Motorway and FOB's. Intel on location of enemy movement and aircraft dispersal at different FOB is crucial.

The Radar and SAM network is another target for SSW to clear the way for an imminent PAF operation in the vicinity of that area. Specially trained and infiltrated S-400 hunting teams are a must which have the ability to sabotage S-400 presenting threat to PAF ops within 24-48 hours of the war. Although enemy AWACS can do much of constant Radar work for enemy AF to operate, destruction of SAM's is a crucial blow to divert constant CAP's to affected areas.

The most common action is destruction or disabling the runways so the enemy AF cannot make to the skies but the appearance of many FOB and temporary airstrips renders the efficiency of such ops close to useless.

Destruction of fuel dumps as well as weapons storage facility delivers a devastating blow to enemy operations. SU30 can stay in air longer and also carries more weapons than any PAF fighter.

Assassination of top ranking enemy AF officials as well as experienced pilots is priority too as this delays many planning procedures/ops and a lethal plane without a killer-instinct pilot is just a fly in the sky.

The Heavy Lift Cargo aircrafts which deliver supplies to crucial areas in kashmir regions are a juicy target. They not only transfer troops but also weapons, supplies, medical equipment, spare parts etc in lesser time than ground transport.

Similarly disabling enemy Aircraft on the ground is important but the dispersal of aircrafts to different FOB's makes this task cumbersome and SSW can be employed to interrupt the flying of enemy Aircrafts in other ways.

From providing intel to destruction of enemy assets, SSW role is spread over a large domain to bring out favourable results for PAF in case of war.

you have given excellent points.

As for the highlighted part, ISI can take care of that and if thats not possible, then SSW operators can make any weapon from resources available to them. Resourceful contacts can also be found in enemy territory who can provide any required piece of equipment for a price.

If we are planning to employ SSW as a defensive force for point duty roles or counter terrorism operations then we are surely fighting battles & wars whether they are low intensity or high intensity depending on the enemy's choice. We must look to use SSW as an offensive force to bring a strategic balance in terms of air power in South Asia which in terms minimises the risk of a war. That means identifying tools & capabilities that give confidence to the enemy to go on an offensive & then finding ways to reduce or eliminate that confidence. The best way to go about that is a passive offensive approach. Don't do hard kills Do soft kills i.e. don't blow up a fuel dump but contaminate the fuel just enough to put the machines temporarily out of use. We must look to employ SSW personnel for strategic intelligence gathering, espionage & sabotage roles directed against enemy air capabilities specifically offensive capabilities. The work of which remains passive & silent during peace time but gives us an ability to launch delaying, diversionary & if need be destructive operations post a Mumbai like incident that would help us delay or avert an attack for let's a couple of months to buy time for political & diplomatic solutions, allowing common sense & rational thinking to prevail. Employing SSW as an offensive force would also help us prepare our defences better by conducting exercises against SSW operations on our end.

 

[544_delta]

If we are planning to employ SSW as a defensive force for point duty roles or counter terrorism operations then we are surely fighting battles & wars whether they are low intensity or high intensity depending on the enemy's choice. We must look to use SSW as an offensive force to bring a strategic balance in terms of air power in South Asia which in terms minimises the risk of a war. That means identifying tools & capabilities that give confidence to the enemy to go on an offensive & then finding ways to reduce or eliminate that confidence. The best way to go about that is a passive offensive approach. Don't do hard kills Do soft kills i.e. don't blow up a fuel dump but contaminate the fuel just enough to put the machines temporarily out of use. We must look to employ SSW personnel for strategic intelligence gathering, espionage & sabotage roles directed against enemy air capabilities specifically offensive capabilities. The work of which remains passive & silent during peace time but gives us an ability to launch delaying, diversionary & if need be destructive operations post a Mumbai like incident that would help us delay or avert an attack for let's a couple of months to buy time for political & diplomatic solutions, allowing common sense & rational thinking to prevail. Employing SSW as an offensive force would also help us prepare our defences better by conducting exercises against SSW operations on our end.

All of this requires a force that's been matured over a considerable time by numerous such missions and accumulated relevant experience...if a war breaks out in near future can we confidently deploy this force for the spectrum of duties you have mentioned? because all i can see right now is a perimeter defense force with some counter terrorism capabilities....if we are relying on training then we have to have optimum level of training....i doubt that these guys would be training with recon marines, USAF/Army SF or SAS.....for those are the guys we should be learning this from (i dont know the structure of this force but personally i think for the behind enemy lines operations nothing works better than the ODA team structure like that of the green berets)