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PAF/PA Helicopters

kharian beast and hascasn a humble request please let's not get into our usual bed time wishes and as for enlarging our wallets well for that we need good leaders and leader has 2 come from outside the two families of MR.BB(bhuttos...zardari) and the MIAN camp.

Well to be fair this topic has been beaten to death and nothing much is ever concluded except that money is needed to allocate for attack choppers.
 
i guess u r right Kharian the problem these days is alot of things r in the "PIPELINE" nothing is materlising not even the first squadron of our JF-17s that was supposed 2 be up and running before the end of the 1st quarter of 2009 neither the siging of the contract for the J10s neither r the AIM120s arriving yet even though they were supposed 2 be here end of 2008.....but oh well let's just keep sitting with our wish list.
 
i guess u r right Kharian the problem these days is alot of things r in the "PIPELINE" nothing is materlising not even the first squadron of our JF-17s that was supposed 2 be up and running before the end of the 1st quarter of 2009 neither the siging of the contract for the J10s neither r the AIM120s arriving yet even though they were supposed 2 be here end of 2008.....but oh well let's just keep sitting with our wish list.

not even the first squadron of our JF-17s that was supposed 2 be up and running before the end of the 1st quarter of 2009

everything costs money and agreement finalization takes time - the good news is that the 1st operational sqdn will be re-equipped by end of the year - I wouldnt complain too much!:enjoy:

neither the siging of the contract for the J10s

F-20 is under evaluation - there was never any committment for signing any contract this early - F-20s wont arrive much before 2012-14.

neither r the AIM120s arriving yet even though they were supposed 2 be here end of 2008

wrong time line - they will arrive simultaneously with the Blk-52s in 2010.

pls be patient! whats your hurry - youre a young man!:enjoy:i should be worried because i am in my 50s!:enjoy:
 
kharian beast and hascasn a humble request please let's not get into our usual bed time wishes and as for enlarging our wallets well for that we need good leaders and leader has 2 come from outside the two families of MR.BB(bhuttos...zardari) and the MIAN camp.

anyhow sticking to the subject i think TURKEY can be of great help in this field cuz turkey like pakistan enjoys Western technologies rather than russian or chinese or israeli....so i guess Turkey and pakistan look for similar things when it comes 2 armament...so instead of just relying completely on CHINA cuz nowadays i am scared of it these days everything we want we say don't worry we will ask china we r becoming spoilt brats so ya i say let's join hands with TURKEY on this one....

I agree with berzerk, we need to get more Super cobras Ah1Zs. As a NATO ally pakistan can get these from US inventory. AH1Z is almost at par with AH64 apache.

Along with that pakistan needs to get heavy lifters as i heard that there is plan to deploy airborne divisoin which can be deployed anywhere in the world in the shortest period of time.

More AH1zs, MI17, Chinooks and coiuple of star lifters will make aviation a cutting edge aviation force.

How about comparing Ah1Zs with any chinese inventory.
 
there is plan to deploy airborne divisoin which can be deployed anywhere in the world in the shortest period of time.

There are two main types of Airborne Divisions used today, as far as I am aware. Air Assault (chopper-borne + air support + paratroopers), as in the US 101st Airborne, and Airborne Light Infantry (paratroopers), as in the US 82nd Airborne. The first type is becoming more and more popular, whereas the second type is almost extinct, except for a few exceptions in the US and Russian forces. We already have parachute assault troops in Pakistan Army (SSG), so I'm guessing the new division will be the multi-role type, which would give PA great flexibility but may not sit well with the PAF (invasion of their domain).

I don't think transport helicopters are required for light-infantry paratroopers, they jump from transport planes (C-130, C-17 etc), but I could very well be wrong.

Oh, and great pictures. The captions are misleading, so you might want to correct them.
 
Oh, and great pictures. The captions are misleading, so you might want to correct them.

Except for the first two pictures, the captions for the MI-17 images are correct.
 
there is plan to deploy airborne divisoin

my dear friend, are you aware of the cost and logistics behind the raising of a airborne division (15,000 troops and equipment)??

lets keep our feet on the ground as they say!
 
Pakistan Army's aviation wing is much more sophisticated than PAF's. And just for the record, PAF doesn't operate our major helicopter fleet. Pakistan army AVIATION does. That's an entirely different branch of Pakistan Army and NOT Pakistan AIR force.

Currently, PAF only operates Alouette III's and a few MI-17's for S&R missions. But in case of emergency, Pakistan army aviation is always there to respond.

I remember back in 1998, One of PAF's F-7P crashed near bahawalpur and my Father was on a refuelling status at the airbase in Bahawlpur at that time. And due to the unavailability of any rescue team, he had to lead the rescue mission on his SA-330 Puma. So yes, coordination between PAF and PAA is always there. Oh and the pilot ejected and was safely taken to a hospital after recovering him from the crash location.

As far as the 'Reputable' helicopters from AA are concerned, We have a pretty decent fleet for now. Bell-412's & UH-1H's for VIP/General transport and light troop transport along with relief operations and air support, SA/IAR-330 Puma's for Troop transport, Air support, VIP transport, and special operations, MI-17's for troop transport and relief operations, Eurocopter AS-350 Ecureuil's for VIP transport and high altitude missions, AH-1 F/S Cobra's for attack operations, Bell Jet-Rangers for reconnaissance and light relief operations, Alloutte III's for reconnaissance and general transport. We're in a process of upgrading our fleet but for now, I don't see a problem with the current one. It's doing it's job well enough but of course, we can use a couple of new birds.

We need to procure a decent amount of attack helicopters but our primary role for attack choppers have always been as TANK hunters instead of Taliban hunters. Since we're seeing an increase in man-based Anti-Tank weapons, the need for an attack helicopter is slowly on the verge of fading away. However, we'll still operate our attack choppers as Tank hunters in the future simply because AT air support from attack helicopters will remain indisputable. A couple of AH-64 apache's wouldn't hurt us but the price tag is way too much for those. We'd rather procure the twin engine AH-1J/W or AH-1Z Super Cobra's instead of going for the Apaches. Also because we've been working with the Cobra gunship for quite some time now and our recent upgrade of Baktar-shikan AT rockets on our Cobra's has given us a great amount of benefit and it will prove quite handy in the future. Better to get an effective, reasonably priced platform that we've already worked on then getting something completely new. I'm not saying we shouldn't, I'm saying that AH-1J/W suits us better.

In terms of transport helicopters, I don't see Pakistan Aviation grounding the MI-17 fleet anytime soon for the same reasons. We've worked with them for quite some time now (Including MI-8's) and they're cheap, reliable, and cost effective for their role in our army. They're also great for modifications and can be used as light attack helicopters for air support in times of war.

All in all, valid point about the upgrade of our fleet, but I can ASSURE you that there's a lot of planning going on in that sector for our future procurements. Sit tight, and watch how it'll all unfold ;)

PAF doesn't have a big fleet like ARMY AVIATION, our fighter pilots who can't fly fighters go on to choppers if a spot is available. Most of them are at PAF BASE PESHAWAR and atleast 1 at every fighter base, 99% of the work is done by ARMY AVIATION and the do a fantastic job.
There are couple of book on our Army Aviation some written by PAK Army Aviators some by John Fricker.
 
PAF doesn't have a big fleet like ARMY AVIATION, our fighter pilots who can't fly fighters go on to choppers if a spot is available. Most of them are at PAF BASE PESHAWAR and atleast 1 at every fighter base, 99% of the work is done by ARMY AVIATION and the do a fantastic job.
There are couple of book on our Army Aviation some written by PAK Army Aviators some by John Fricker.

Sir, do you have titles of the books you have mentioned!:enjoy:
 
Sir, do you have titles of the books you have mentioned!:enjoy:

1/ The tree-top warriors by John Fricker
[Air Enthusiast, October 1972]

2/ Pakistan's Army Aviation by John Fricker
[Air International, December 1991]
 
Heavy transport helicopters are very important, because now time is changed, helicopters fly low can avoid radars up to some extent, in short time a large number of troops and weapons can be transported in difficult terrains like Kashmir & Siachin. In disasters can also provide support to manage the disasters. In Kargil failure there were many factors: The decision not to use PAF, Not to declare on international forum clearly that Huriatpasands had handed over the post to Pakistan Army, India blocked the supply lines by artillary fire and then there was shortage of ammunition, In need soliders could not reach in required area on time, Casualties could not remove from area. In result a disaster. After Kargil nobody even considerd to think hevay lift helicopters are very necessary. Each day two C-130's were transporting heavy artillary ammunition from Sargodha to Sakardu but then again from sakardu to forward areas with trucks but to forward lines with horses, same as was done in Afghanistan. In 1965 when india attacked on Sialkot sector Pakistan army was in Chamb sector, after attack on Sialkot sector they came same night through trucks to Sialkot-Chawinda. There was our luck india attacked, advanced but then retreated first night by thinking that may be pakistan army is traping, same as did china in 1962, infact there was not a single pakistani solider that night on Sialkot-Chawinda sector. Till next morning Pakistan army was there because Chamb is not very far away from Sialkot-Chawinda. But now things goes very fast if you have to drop your soliders and weapons behind enemy backs then.....!!! If you need urgent support on some sector then......! If you have to withdraw injured soliders on urgent bases then.....! If you need military support in difficult terrains like kashmir and Siachin then.....! Our problem is that we donot learn from history.
 
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i personnaly fell pakistan army needs more attack helicopter atleast more 30 AH cobra and around 40 AH apaches to support our armed forces in war from above

than MI 18 for medium lift around 15 of them

than heavy lift MI 22 around 10 of them

for rescue i think Black hawk will be great
 
i personnaly fell pakistan army needs more attack helicopter atleast more 30 AH cobra and around 40 AH apaches to support our armed forces in war from above

than MI 18 for medium lift around 15 of them


than heavy lift MI 22 around 10 of them

for rescue i think Black hawk will be great

Mi-22: You want us to buy a helicopter that wasn't even approved by it's manufacturer for production?

No such thing as MI-18. I'm sure you meant MI-8. We started retiring our fleet of MI-8's back in the 80's and 90's. With all due respect sir, are you HIGH by any chance? :lol:
 
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