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PAF EQUIPPED WITH LATEST TECHNOLOGY TO RESPOND ALL THREATS: AIR CHIEF

it is impossible to imagine that any of the AA Gun in the world can take on a modern fighter jet. ..............AA Guns only meant for dealing with Hellis and Drones.......
Oerlikon AA guns have 4 km of effective range and every fighter jet can escape it by flying beyond that reach.
................layman observations.


Thanks


I understand that part but i think strategy on part of india is to get air domination ... our army is more than a match to india so on ground assault is not an issue ... the issue is with air cover of india ... india also has quantity of air attack ... so our prime strategy must be area denial both air and water whereas prime offensive will be from ground ... so i need to understand what are our prime anti air area denial assets ... i am sure spada hq16 fm90 are not enough whereas hq9 reports are not confirm and if are available then quantity is low ...

Another query in mind is whether our all systems are connected to link17 ... if they are then we stand a chance to use awacs filled data by early warning to partially address threat of brahmos ... but i even doubt that sams are connected to link 17


NATO Integrated Air Defense System
TMLD was responsible for detecting low-flying planes between 0 - 3000 m altitude.
(AD C2 Centers - Air Defense Command and Control: SOC and CRC)

Can you understand that Graphic ?

LV in NATO 1970s.jpg


  • Fighter Zone (blue) High altitude zone (Duty of SAM HQ-16 and Fighter- Jf-17-F-16-J-7PG)
  • Medium Zone ( Duty of SAM FM-90- Spada 2000- Crotale upgraded Version- J-7 Skybolt
  • Lower (Red) Zone AA Guns all upgraded (12.7mm -14,5mm-23mm-37mm-57mm AA) Guns.
  • Lower Zone MANPADS all upgraded (RBS-70-Mistral-FN-6-Stinger-Anza-1-2)
So the Indian Fighter plane can go up and down in this different zones when it will enter our air space it will definitely meet one of those named weapons of not the combination (which is more deadly).


There is no sunny day walk for the IAF the same goes for PAF when it will try to enter Indian airspace. If you want to know more details than you have to join the PAF.
 
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we are using GDF-Swiss and Chinese 37mm and 57mm AA Guns.

PA has spent at least 250 million USD on importing Swiss AA guns and radars in last 10 years. A local or cheaper solution should have been pursued.

We could have made some savings for the Dragon :D. It can use same radar as HQ-16 and its missile is from SD-10A family. :(

 
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Thanks


I understand that part but i think strategy on part of india is to get air domination ... our army is more than a match to india so on ground assault is not an issue ... the issue is with air cover of india ... india also has quantity of air attack ... so our prime strategy must be area denial both air and water whereas prime offensive will be from ground ... so i need to understand what are our prime anti air area denial assets ... i am sure spada hq16 fm90 are not enough whereas hq9 reports are not confirm and if are available then quantity is low ...

Another query in mind is whether our all systems are connected to link17 ... if they are then we stand a chance to use awacs filled data by early warning to partially address threat of brahmos ... but I even doubt that sams are connected to link 17
PA has spent at least 250 million USD on importing Swiss AA guns and radars in last 10 years. A local or cheaper solution should have been pursued.


GDF are used in groups with 12.7mm AA Gun, 37 mm AA Gun (upgraded) and 57mm AA Gun (upgraded). The GDF fire control Radar System locate and direct the fire to the enemy plane the other give the fire support and altogether build a wall of grenade blasts- called air defense shield. So the combination of the High Tech System GDF Guns and the retro Chineses AA gun Systems (build, maintained and upgraded in Pakistan) is already an economically cheap solution !

Do you know HOW MANY GDF guns Pakistan has bought over the last 30 years and how much it has costs altogether ? ( I THINK WE HAD GOT A GOOD PRICE FOR THIS GUNS)

230 million for how many pieces ? (it's not only the gun but also spare parts, training, radar, fire control System...)
 
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Do you know HOW MANY GDF guns Pakistan has bought over the last 30 years and how much it has costs altogether ? ( I THINK WE HAD GOT A GOOD PRICE FOR THIS GUNS)

230 million for how many pieces ? (it's not only the gun but also spare parts, training, radar, fire control System...)

I have seen the data for the period 2006 - 2015. Take a look here.
 
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Already done: FM-90, Spada 2000, HQ-16.


FM-90, Spada 2000, HQ-16, Crotale, RBS-70, FN-6,, Anza 1+2, 12.7mm AA Gun, 14,5mm AA Gun, 23mm AA gun, 37 mm AA Gun, GDF-1-3 AA Guns 37mm, 57mm AA Gun......This altogether is named a complex of air defense, a single system alone is useless even the Patriot SAM.
It's the clock working network which leads to success ! Good Morning !

do u know wht are the max range of these missile all of them have a max range of 40km except the spada 2000 which max range is 60km while our neighbor has sams with max ranges from 400km (currently), after induction of s400 our chances of getting into their skies would be suicidal and really i am not joking. THE WORLD IS MAKING ADVANCE DEFENSE MISSILE SYSTEM IN ORDER TO PREVENT HOSTILE AIR SUPERIORITY, now as u know that India has 9K33 Osa and 9k35 strela10 both which range is 400+km and have around 350 batteries while we only have 10 batteries of spada 2000. so my brother we r really lacking behind in SAMS technology and after s400 sams u know wht will be the consequences if we try get into their airspace
so first in order to get into thier airspace without detected by sams we should have airplanes with rcs less than 1.5m2
and to just meet our air defense demands we should get hq9 missile around 40-50 batteries to keep our enemy at bay
 
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do u know wht are the max range of these missile all of them have a max range of 40km except the spada 2000 which max range is 60km while our neighbor has sams with max ranges from 400km (currently), after induction of s400 our chances of getting into their skies would be suicidal and really i am not joking. THE WORLD IS MAKING ADVANCE DEFENSE MISSILE SYSTEM IN ORDER TO PREVENT HOSTILE AIR SUPERIORITY, now as u know that India has 9K33 Osa and 9k35 strela10 both which range is 400+km and have around 350 batteries while we only have 10 batteries of spada 2000. so my brother we r really lacking behind in SAMS technology and after s400 sams u know wht will be the consequences if we try get into their airspace
so first in order to get into thier airspace without detected by sams we should have airplanes with rcs less than 1.5m2
and to just meet our air defense demands we should get hq9 missile around 40-50 batteries to keep our enemy at bay


I don't think PAF wants to penetrate Indian air space very deep, it will try to operate only along the Borders, provide ground Troops air cover, attack airfields near the Border, protect the own air space ! I am not expert when it come to long range SAM like the S-400, if it works 100% it means, Indian can shoot down our fighter jets in our own space or during the takeoff !
 
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I have seen it before it was posted in PDF, but thx alot for the notice ! Keep On !



Absolut wrong, than you dont have understand the air defence NETWORKE: good if the IAF is forced to fly higher because of the AA Guns, than he is FORCED to fly in the range of our air defence fighters J-7, J-7PG, Jf-17.
It's not the sophistication of guns and bullets that take out the targets, but the REALITY in a different realm. Off course most of the folks have no clue about it....

I dont think PAF wants penetrate Indian air space very deep, it will try to operate only a long the Borders, provide ground Troops air cover, attack air fields near the Border, protect the own air space ! I am not expert when it come to long range SAM like the S-400, if it works 100% it means, indian can shoot down our fighet jets in our own space or during the take off !
For that you need EW systems, like ASELSAN KORAL, that can deceive the enemy to detect phantom images to render complete delusion to both man and machine..

do u know wht are the max range of these missile all of them have a max range of 40km except the spada 2000 which max range is 60km while our neighbor has sams with max ranges from 400km (currently), after induction of s400 our chances of getting into their skies would be suicidal and really i am not joking. THE WORLD IS MAKING ADVANCE DEFENSE MISSILE SYSTEM IN ORDER TO PREVENT HOSTILE AIR SUPERIORITY, now as u know that India has 9K33 Osa and 9k35 strela10 both which range is 400+km and have around 350 batteries while we only have 10 batteries of spada 2000. so my brother we r really lacking behind in SAMS technology and after s400 sams u know wht will be the consequences if we try get into their airspace
so first in order to get into thier airspace without detected by sams we should have airplanes with rcs less than 1.5m2
and to just meet our air defense demands we should get hq9 missile around 40-50 batteries to keep our enemy at bay
For every disease there's a cure as per our belief system. S-400 is no exception as humbly shown by the Turkish folks with their ASELSAN KORAL system during the Syrian crisis. EW systems significantly depend on coming up with the right algorithms. And, these aren't "social media" or "Google" like staffs. These are like "reading the mind of God" as stated by Einstein. Elhamdulillah by HIS infinite mercy the Turkish folks have mastered a small bit of it. Anyway, success depends on how much the actions are in parallel to Murad-i Ilahi. Off course the Ga'fil and Fa'sik folks have no clue about it...
 
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NATO Integrated Air Defense System
TMLD was responsible for detecting low-flying planes between 0 - 3000 m altitude.
(AD C2 Centers - Air Defense Command and Control: SOC and CRC)

Can you understand that Graphic ?

View attachment 353748

Hawk? Nike? F-4? What decade is this? The 1980s?

arkiv_1998__1314_document.jpg


That iteration of the NATO Integrated Air Defense Network was centered around massive static instillations and is rather outdated by todays standards which feature rapidly movable short and long-ranged air-defense systems like PATRIOT, NASAMS II and ASTER, integrated air defense naval assets like ESSM and SM-2 and individual air forces from NATO partner nations.

Functionally the air defense network works in a similar manner, but its scope has expanded to include naval assets too, which form a major cog in integrated air defense networks for capable nations like the US, UK, Norway or other Eurofrigate users. It's far more mobile and survivable playing an emphasis on rapid response to all classes of threat. Currently the static defenses of the NATO Integrated Air Defense Network take the form of AEGIS Ashore batteries in Romania (and soon Poland) for defense against strategic missiles. The rest of the network is mobile and designed to work in concert with maneuvering troops on the ground, at sea or in the air seamlessly and without delay.

arkiv_1998__1335_document.t43e094b8.m1600.x7e6bd8b8.jpg


20160511MMQ_0012.t57344566.m1600.xec80c056.jpg


FNAN_F310_Brendefur_RIMPAC%2014_120714_05.t541005f2.m1600.x7f9a7879.jpg


22479599252_3a39266acc_k.t58219209.m1600.xe1c91c61.jpg


The TMLD equivalent depends on the system a nation is contributing, such as this MPQ64. They provide the eyes needed to down heloes, UAVs and actually have pretty long ranges (40-75km). Such systems are no longer the first-eyes on target, but are for point or area defense.

tkfoa1R2686.t51404032.m1600.x9ca8c0b8.jpg


AWACS, surface and subsurface boats and land-based long-ranged radars (the Globus II below has a range of +7000km) provide one component of the current sensor package. EW assets also form part of that barrier as do intelligence assets.

arkiv_fms2005_1760_document.t46405852.m1600.x11469889.jpg


Cool thing about these Sindre II radars is that they can be retracted into subterranean caves.

tk0R1966.t5535d5b3.m1600.x129826c8.jpg


NATO nations do have air defense guns... well some of them do, like Poland which has a handful of 40mm cannons and Russian holdovers, but these types of systems play no large role in the modern NATO Integrated Air Defense Network and assets needed to support them have been phased out.

So yeah, ultimately you're correct there are NATO examples to lend credence to Pakistan's use of AA guns with short-range, low-altitude radars, but that example is also three decades old and needs to be paired with modern solutions to maintain effectiveness on a networked battlefield.

The line formation concept doesn't exist anymore and has been outdated for a while now. Maneuverability and networking, support and cooperability are the go-to capabilities of today's air defense networks in Europe. I hope Pakistan isn't predicating its defense network on a three decade old NATO plan and concept type.

Russia's modern air defense networks might offer a better and more time-relevant example.

Sorry for being nitpicky:D.

now as u know that India has 9K33 Osa and 9k35 strela10 both which range is 400+km and have around 350 batteries while we only have 10 batteries of spada 2000.

Strela is analogous to Stinger, Mistral or Anza with a range of roughly 4km, not 400km. The OSA missile has a range of about 15km. The OSA vehicle has a range of about 500km... the missile does not.

Both are quality systems and have blood on them, but they aren't strategic air defense assets. More of mobile point or limited area defense.

while our neighbor has sams with max ranges from 400km (currently)

Let's remember that the ranges are stated for the ideal, picture perfect conditions against a non-maneuvering target that isn't deploying countermeasures. The reality is that none of those things happen on a modern battlefield.

Also, the +400km missile isn't effective against fighter-class targets. It's too big and was designed to down heavy bombers, tankers and AWACS assets (large ones like the E-3, not smaller ones like the E-2D). The missile that has the longest range against fighter class targets has a range of around 250km.

Again, these are deadly missile systems and though they don't have bodies yet, dismissing them is a fools game. They form some of the most well respected, most feared air defense systems on the planet.

For comparison, PAC-2 has a range of about 160km against fighter class targets, and less against missiles.

we should get hq9 missile around 40-50 batteries to keep our enemy at bay

I like HQ-9 and respect its capabilities too, and the Chinese make a damn good missile, but 40-50 batteries is a lot.

One NASAM II battery has twelve launchers, each with six missiles. The missiles can be AMRAAM-B/C/D, Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block I/II, or AIM-9X Block I/II. Note that each missile has a different name when used as a surface-launched weapon, i.e. SL-AMRAAM or SL-AMRAAM-ER.

One PATRIOT battery line has six launchers, each with between 2-16 missiles depending on the type (2-4 for PAC-2, 2-16 for PAC-3).

One HQ-9 battery consists of four launchers, each with four missiles.

Ten might be better - 160 missiles. 40-50 is a tad excessive.
 
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It's not the sophistication of guns and bullets that take out the targets, but the REALITY in a different realm. Off course most of the folks have no clue about it....


For that you need EW systems, like ASELSAN KORAL, that can deceive the enemy to detect phantom images to render complete delusion to both man and machine..


For every disease there's a cure as per our belief system. S-400 is no exception as humbly shown by the Turkish folks with their ASELSAN KORAL system during the Syrian crisis. EW systems significantly depend on coming up with the right algorithms. And, these aren't "social media" or "Google" like staffs. These are like "reading the mind of God" as stated by Einstein. Elhamdulillah by HIS infinite mercy the Turkish folks have mastered a small bit of it. Anyway, success depends on how much the actions are in parallel to Murad-i Ilahi. Off course the Ga'fil and Fa'sik folks have no clue about it...
There is an America System for the Navy called Nulka, and this is what it does:
Naval-EW.jpg
 
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Hawk? Nike? F-4? What decade is this? The 1980s?

View attachment 353915

That iteration of the NATO Integrated Air Defense Network was centered around massive static instillations and is rather outdated by todays standards which feature rapidly movable short and long-ranged air-defense systems like PATRIOT, NASAMS II and ASTER, integrated air defense naval assets like ESSM and SM-2 and individual air forces from NATO partner nations.

Functionally the air defense network works in a similar manner, but its scope has expanded to include naval assets too, which form a major cog in integrated air defense networks for capable nations like the US, UK, Norway or other Eurofrigate users. It's far more mobile and survivable playing an emphasis on rapid response to all classes of threat. Currently the static defenses of the NATO Integrated Air Defense Network take the form of AEGIS Ashore batteries in Romania (and soon Poland) for defense against strategic missiles. The rest of the network is mobile and designed to work in concert with maneuvering troops on the ground, at sea or in the air seamlessly and without delay.

arkiv_1998__1335_document.t43e094b8.m1600.x7e6bd8b8.jpg


20160511MMQ_0012.t57344566.m1600.xec80c056.jpg


FNAN_F310_Brendefur_RIMPAC%2014_120714_05.t541005f2.m1600.x7f9a7879.jpg


22479599252_3a39266acc_k.t58219209.m1600.xe1c91c61.jpg


The TMLD equivalent depends on the system a nation is contributing, such as this MPQ64. They provide the eyes needed to down heloes, UAVs and actually have pretty long ranges (40-75km). Such systems are no longer the first-eyes on target, but are for point or area defense.

tkfoa1R2686.t51404032.m1600.x9ca8c0b8.jpg


AWACS, surface and subsurface boats and land-based long-ranged radars (the Globus II below has a range of +7000km) provide one component of the current sensor package. EW assets also form part of that barrier as do intelligence assets.

arkiv_fms2005_1760_document.t46405852.m1600.x11469889.jpg


Cool thing about these Sindre II radars is that they can be retracted into subterranean caves.

tk0R1966.t5535d5b3.m1600.x129826c8.jpg


NATO nations do have air defense guns... well some of them do, like Poland which has a handful of 40mm cannons and Russian holdovers, but these types of systems play no large role in the modern NATO Integrated Air Defense Network and assets needed to support them have been phased out.

So yeah, ultimately you're correct there are NATO examples to lend credence to Pakistan's use of AA guns with short-range, low-altitude radars, but that example is also three decades old and needs to be paired with modern solutions to maintain effectiveness on a networked battlefield.

The line formation concept doesn't exist anymore and has been outdated for a while now. Maneuverability and networking, support and cooperability are the go-to capabilities of today's air defense networks in Europe. I hope Pakistan isn't predicating its defense network on a three decade old NATO plan and concept type.

Russia's modern air defense networks might offer a better and more time-relevant example.

Sorry for being nitpicky:D.



Strela is analogous to Stinger, Mistral or Anza with a range of roughly 4km, not 400km. The OSA missile has a range of about 15km. The OSA vehicle has a range of about 500km... the missile does not.

Both are quality systems and have blood on them, but they aren't strategic air defense assets. More of mobile point or limited area defense.



Let's remember that the ranges are stated for the ideal, picture perfect conditions against a non-maneuvering target that isn't deploying countermeasures. The reality is that none of those things happen on a modern battlefield.

Also, the +400km missile isn't effective against fighter-class targets. It's too big and was designed to down heavy bombers, tankers and AWACS assets (large ones like the E-3, not smaller ones like the E-2D). The missile that has the longest range against fighter class targets has a range of around 250km.

Again, these are deadly missile systems and though they don't have bodies yet, dismissing them is a fools game. They form some of the most well respected, most feared air defense systems on the planet.

For comparison, PAC-2 has a range of about 160km against fighter class targets, and less against missiles.



I like HQ-9 and respect its capabilities too, and the Chinese make a damn good missile, but 40-50 batteries is a lot.

One NASAM II battery has twelve launchers, each with six missiles. The missiles can be AMRAAM-B/C/D, Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block I/II, or AIM-9X Block I/II. Note that each missile has a different name when used as a surface-launched weapon, i.e. SL-AMRAAM or SL-AMRAAM-ER.

One PATRIOT battery line has six launchers, each with between 2-16 missiles depending on the type (2-4 for PAC-2, 2-16 for PAC-3).

One HQ-9 battery consists of four launchers, each with four missiles.

Ten might be better - 160 missiles. 40-50 is a tad excessive.
10 if bought off the shelf, still 25 (400 missiles/ main reason is deterrence and real capabilities against a large air force) or more is best, mostly if Pakistan can make them locally through ToT..
 
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If India put their sam close to our borders than may be half of Pakistan will be no fly zone
 
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