PAF Chief in Washington

[TOPGUN]

If I


If I have driven Honda city throughout my life I won't know or understand the experience a Porsche gives ...so I always share my experience of Honda city stating how wonderful car that is until I find my way into porche and experience the difference myself to compare ...same is the case here a pilot who has flown f16 in his life would never understand what he has been missing until he flies a Rafael sukhoi or for that matter any other 4.5 or 4.5++ generation aircraft....I have heard people owning Suzuki fx saying its the best car out there ...but don't always believe what people say
..because most of the times what people say is just based upon their personal experiences that may not be adequate most of the times to support any assumptions or facts

Agreed to some degree, my cousin in this story has flown over 5 different types of aircraft so what's your point ? the viper is a hell of a battle proven aircraft my friend go read up on it.

 

[batmannow]

Sir as a pro how u rate our F16 block 52 ( only 18 in number) against Indian JETS with PESA radars and expected to enter soon AESA radars/IRST pods fitted Jets along with better ranged Russian A TO A missiles.



In Kargil the Mushi strategists prohibited PAF to play any active role, further for war sorties PAF had requirements for huge stockpile of spares which were embargoed by US but still PAF managed to keep it;s F16s air worthy and defensive sorties were made by the F16s. Our forces faced damages within enemy territory which were inevitable considering circumstances. Further we didn't had AMRAAMs at that time. PAF should go for atleast AESA upgrade and IRST pods for block 52 -F16s.

Who told you that , then chief of army staff didn't tell the air chief about kargill ?
I guess , you just read lot of stories ?lolzz
Army chief of that time knew pretty well that , what will happen once we go for the kill & he knew well our hands were tied down by that stupid embargo ?
Plan was to bring IAF into Pakistan territory & use our stingers on them ?
It was done to some degree ?
We knew the details , but when your mirages came into night time targeted bombing that's was the moment where we , needed our dam F-16s on our side ?
& it wasn't there we knew it , but that's the way it was ?
Lesson to be learnt , costly showpieces like F-16s are enough , we should get , su-35s or any other plateform in use with our all weather allay like China & let's rumble another kargill , & let's see that any Indian PM has any ballllllls to press the red button or not ?lolzz

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Most likely some pressure on him not to go with Sukhoi-35 Russian jets , might be shown F16 block A/B to impress him to choose F16

 

[batmannow]

My friend who said we should not buy SU platform??? My humbles submission was to first let go of atleast one platform and then add the SU platform to ensure absorption time and capacity. Your half cocked reply seems to reflect that the decision is about to be done as we speak!!! And is it available to us --- or Russia is playing us against India!!!!!!!

And sir, if you are hoping against hope to get ToT for SU 35 than sadly u would be living in a fools paradise -- and that promise my friend you can take it to the bank!!!!

And once and for all -- SU is a heavy fighter by any standards and can not be compared and or its abilities with that of JFT or the F-16.

SU is a real threat to Pakistan not from the east but from the south west!!! Yes all planning of PAF and the armed forces have factored in the long range of the platform and its ability to circumvent our traditional radar coverage and strike at strategic targets without being detected!!! This is the real threat of this aircraft and not the BVR capability, relatively speaking as compared to its range and payload since the distances from the airbases to the front line is minimal.

That is the reason we started concentrating on the AWACs platforms the day SU was earmarked for purchase by India.

After nearly 40 years been spent on show pieces like F-16s how many more years you need to understand it ?
Sorry , its past , forget it , parcticllly its no use in case of PAK/INDIA war ?
We have tried it , tested it ?
We are into negociations with Russia , for SU -35 s let's concertrete on it ?
Its been reported by their DFM?no ?
That will serve us 10 times better?
Even if we can't get a deal on with Russia for SU- 35 s any how , we should go for the longest range aircraft we can get from China that's still be better 5 times then getting a stupid show pice like F- 16s ?
Even if we can't get it from China , we should put our money on our JFT 17 ,still 3 times better then the stupid F- 16s which even as unable to cover us , from the enemy airel targeted bombing in kargill ?
I think , if we can't even go with our JFTs then its better to throw that money to our farmers who can buy few thousands tractors ?
still that money will some how will benefit our nation 2 times better then buying a F-16?
F-16 is a cancer in which our air force been strangled so long ?

 

[Mani2020]

Agreed to some degree, my cousin in this story has flown over 5 different types of aircraft so what's your point ? the viper is a heal of a battle proven aircraft my friend go read up on it.

I think you meant "hell" instead you wrote "heal"

On topic I don't need to read up something I know about ...its a great fighter of its age ...nobody is denying that but since its introduction there have been some major evolution and generation changes ...you can't expect an 80's aircraft which was designed for 80's to match up something which was designed for a different era instead of all the modifications ....yes its good in dog fights due to its maneuverability but just on the basis of that you can't rest your case ...the point here is to move beyond f16s ..nobody is downgrading f16s but now its time to jump onto something better instead of lingering on with something that might not be sufficient against some good aircrafts....besides by 5 different other aircarfts I hope you don't mean f-7s , mirage 3 , mirage 5, f-6s or a-5s ..because its like a transition from Suzuki fx to Suzuki mehran to cultus and finally to Honda city as I said before in such transition I would definitely end up liking Honda city

 

[batmannow]

Most likely some pressure on him not to go with Sukhoi-35 Russian jets , might be shown F16 block A/B to impress him to choose F16

He won't , he will be going to Russia !
if not then , that's the begaining of the end !

The f-16 could well be the last high tech american fighter we would go for in the foreseeable future. Not many know that Russians have offered su-35 without us asking for it. As windi said, people undermine the capabilities of the falcon which in the hands of a skillful pilot is a deadly adversary without a doubt. It is still more agile than many out there and the EW suit, weapon arsenal topped with the V9 radar, it is more than handful for any opponent in the world.

For fanboys, sorry, no f-35 or 22 or hornet or eagles were discussed

Skill full pilot can't do a dam , if the dam F-16 been jammed by NASA ?
in that case its just a show pice , with lot of money invested ?

Nope.. Nothing is unless you consider su30 as Gods greatest gift to aviation (like our Indian pals do).

Nor , does F-16s ?
Dam pice of shyt , can't fly the time we needed , doesnt matters , blk 52 ,53 , 54 or 84 , NASA will jam it anytime they want ?

 

[krash]

If I


If I have driven Honda city throughout my life I won't know or understand the experience a Porsche gives ...so I always share my experience of Honda city stating how wonderful car that is until I find my way into porche and experience the difference myself to compare ...same is the case here a pilot who has flown f16 in his life would never understand what he has been missing until he flies a Rafael sukhoi or for that matter any other 4.5 or 4.5++ generation aircraft....I have heard people owning Suzuki fx saying its the best car out there ...but don't always believe what people say
..because most of the times what people say is just based upon their personal experiences that may not be adequate most of the times to support any assumptions or facts

The PAF has flown, tested and evaluated the Grippen, the Rafale, the Typhoon, the Su-30 and the J-11s (the European options way before the Indians ever started thinking about them).

Next is the simple fact that elementary prowess in the skill of reading can make it abundantly clear on one how a Porsche is better than a Honda City, the most basic descriptions of what's in them both will be enough for one to make a fairly accurate assumption. For example, I'll be forgiven for assuming that you've never driven a Porsche, but here you are using its superiority over the Honda City to further your point. The accuracy further increases exponentially when the person tasked with the job is a professional in the field. For example, a professional test car driver would have no problem telling the what from which of either car. Much the same way would a man who's job is to fly these machines.

But then I am arguing with a man who's never sat in an F-16, Rafale, Typhoon or a Porsche....is it just me who see's the irony in your post?

 

[TOPGUN]

I think you meant "hell" instead you wrote "heal"

On topic I don't need to read up something I know about ...its a great fighter of its age ...nobody is denying that but since its introduction there have been some major evolution and generation changes ...you can't expect an 80's aircraft which was designed for 80's to match up something which was designed for a different era instead of all the modifications ....yes its good in dog fights due to its maneuverability but just on the basis of that you can't rest your case ...the point here is to move beyond f16s ..nobody is downgrading f16s but now its time to jump onto something better instead of lingering on with something that might not be sufficient against some good aircrafts....besides by 5 different other aircarfts I hope you don't mean f-7s , mirage 3 , mirage 5, f-6s or a-5s ..because its like a transition from Suzuki fx to Suzuki mehran to cultus and finally to Honda city as I said before in such transition I would definitely end up liking Honda city

Thank you for pointing out my misspelled word I was on my phone ... great achievement on your part .. and no my friend out of the 5 fighters he has also flown include - MK2000 & F-15 then PAF inventory aircraft such as F-7PG and Mirage 3. If you know such much then why sit here and argue ? PAF has to work with what it has in hand a lot of changes are about to take place in the next few years which you don't have and won't have any clue of trust me on that. Now back to the topic yes I agree we need a game changer in PAF and it is well on its way working just on that you shall have to wait and see rather then jumping the gun and comparing fighters with examples of Hondas and Suzuki. In the end the viper is still one of the most deadliest fighters in the world to date either you like it or not .

 

[fatman17]

F35 is off the table for Pakistan

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I have been saying this again and again -- JFT is not there to replace F-16's! They were designed and produced to replace our retiring Mirage's and F-7's! Natural design progression/evolution will logically add better power-plant with greater thrust, better radar and avionics, composites, in years to come. The bird will continuously evolve into a better platform.

In effect JFT is the low of our high and low performance envelope.

Similarly, F-16 is not a replacement for heavy long range fighter aircraft like SU-35!!! Both fighters were designed by two different countries with very different mission requirements and obviously, decades apart!! One was designed in the mid seventies and the other in early to mid 2000!!!

We can not induct large number of heavy twin engine platforms due to high operating and maintenance costs besides the original price tag.

PAF has been flying the SU series in China for while now. They know its capability and have a fair idea of its flight envelope. The issue is not what it can or what it can not do -- we all agree it is a great platform to acquire -- but will Russia sell it to us in the numbers we need to acquire and at a cost we can afford?

Furthermore, with possible induction of SU 35 (b/w I'm all for it) will the need for mid performance aircraft will go away -- i.e. F-16's? SU-35 would be an exorbitantly expensive overkill!

The ideal strategy for PAF would be to go for 50 or so of long range heavies and work with 100 + or so F-16 as tactical strike and area defense fighters, while JFT is progressively being upgraded to match mission capabilities of F-16.

Abundance of used F-16's around the globe and with a comprehensive up-grade and up-rate programs in place, acquiring more F-16 becomes a very attractive option for PAF at a fraction of cost of a new build aircraft.

Buying new aircraft requires -- whether we like it or not - require careful thought and long term planning some of the aspects that need to be seen are:

1. Availability, 2. Cost, 3. Training, 4. Long term support from mfg., 5. Demonstrable Evolution/progress path, 6. Weapon systems, 7. Logistics/supply chain, 8. Induction time; lead-up and subsequent training and integration, and 9. Maintenance and operating costs.

PAF has prided itself in maintaining a relatively high flight hours per pilot regimen -- in essence its pilots are better trained. But this requires high engine times and costs for the plane and the force respectively.

For SU to be really effective and become part of an effective strategy, it will take atleast three to four years from delivery to honing pilot skills and tactics. Case in point is the induction of F 104 on our side and Mig 21's on the Indian side -- both aircraft were not used effectively in 1965 and hence losses were incurred due to relatively low flying hours on them.

What do we do till then? Sit on our hands and do nothing? We are already inducting JFT to replace our ageing platforms. There is an opportunity for us to go for relatively low cost and higher performance fighter aircraft's which would not require long familiarity n lead times and would quickly be inducted and assimilated into the force. Case in point are the Jordanian birds, in less than a month they were being used in our WoT after delivery!!!!

These two decisions - acquiring used F-16 and upgrading them and acquisition of SU-35 are separate parts of the same strategy and not one over the other kind of thing!!!!

P.S. there is no "Kill Switch" controversy, it was all about source codes!!!!

 

[Thorough Pro]

Most Pakistani's on this forum are a confused lot

Pakistanis have pointed out at thousands of places at this site that F -16s will be useless because of some kill switch stuff.Now many of us are supporting F-35 for pakistan. Do you think that america will give us their latest birds without any strings attached or some"kill switches"?

 

[Thorough Pro]

I don't understand when people say F-16 is an 80's aircraft designed in 70's and is now obsolete or about to be obsolete. I breakdown a fighter's capabilities in three categories, hard power, soft power, and killing power.

Hard Power (the visible jet): Lets leave the stealth designs out for the moment. Comparing F-16's aerodynamically unstable but sleek design, low RCS, agility, maneuverability; combat load, range, endurance, G rating, etc. with other "modern" fighters of the same class like Typhon, Rafael, Grippen, MIG29, and J10, I don't see any thing missing or severely lacking to consider it "obsolete or about to become obsolete" in hard power. Subject to driver skills, It can still match / outclass any of the mentioned and some ... platforms any day of the year.

Soft Power: According to my classification, net working, avionics, detection, targeting, ECM, and computing power etc., fall in this category. Evolution in this area (barring stealth tech sensor fusion) has nothing to do with the airframe design of 60's or 70's, which itself has evolved per requirements.

Even in this area, F-16 has not been stagnant, in fact it has been at the forefront of receiving most upgrades in almost every aspect be it radar upgrades, networking, jamming, targeting or whatever. no other platform comes close to vipers in number of upgrades and today despite being a four decade old fighter it is still very potent, battle proven beyond any doubts and has on many occasions outclassed other contemporary fighters in exercises. Any one who says F-16 is 80's technology, is misinformed.

Killing/destructive Power: This depends on he armament and the flexibility in the soft systems to integrate. With todays advancement in computer tech, integration of western weapons on western jets is not an issue. Vipers have a wide variety of options to suit almost every mission profile. Almost all of the latest US weapons find their place on one of the hard points on vipers and they have been used very successfully in recent conflicts. I am not sure about the numbers, but I believe Vipers are the biggest singly fighter force in USAF, and because of that almost every new weapon gets integrated on them, making them ever more lethal and up to date in killing as well as soft power.

New advancements in military technology are very expensive and because the military spending across the world (specially the western world) has gone down significantly since the end of cold war, new tech is not going to be widely affordable and the fourth gen fighter would remain relevant for another two decades, I doubt that even US would be able to retire all of its F-16's (the low end fighter in 15/16 mix) in the next 10 years. I think Eagles and Falcons would remain the bulk of US air fighting machine for another decade with 22 and 35 filling the air dominance / Awe / fear factor role.

I think you meant "hell" instead you wrote "heal"

On topic I don't need to read up something I know about ...its a great fighter of its age ...nobody is denying that but since its introduction there have been some major evolution and generation changes ...you can't expect an 80's aircraft which was designed for 80's to match up something which was designed for a different era instead of all the modifications ....yes its good in dog fights due to its maneuverability but just on the basis of that you can't rest your case ...the point here is to move beyond f16s ..nobody is downgrading f16s but now its time to jump onto something better instead of lingering on with something that might not be sufficient against some good aircrafts....besides by 5 different other aircarfts I hope you don't mean f-7s , mirage 3 , mirage 5, f-6s or a-5s ..because its like a transition from Suzuki fx to Suzuki mehran to cultus and finally to Honda city as I said before in such transition I would definitely end up liking Honda city

 

[Mani2020]

The PAF has flown, tested and evaluated the Grippen, the Rafale, the Typhoon, the Su-30 and the J-11s (the European options way before the Indians ever started thinking about them).

Next is the simple fact that elementary prowess in the skill of reading can make it abundantly clear on one how a Porsche is better than a Honda City, the most basic descriptions of what's in them both will be enough for one to make a fairly accurate assumption. For example, I'll be forgiven for assuming that you've never driven a Porsche, but here you are using its superiority over the Honda City to further your point. The accuracy further increases exponentially when the person tasked with the job is a professional in the field. For example, a professional test car driver would have no problem telling the what from which of either car. Much the same way would a man who's job is to fly these machines.

But then I am arguing with a man who's never sat in an F-16, Rafale, Typhoon or a Porsche....is it just me who see's the irony in your post?

First thing first I was reffering to what his cousin has to say about f16s so our total discussion was based upon his opinion/experience not paf as a whole ...so what paf as a whole has tested or evaluated doesn't mean anything until that person has done it himself to make a comparison
Secondly in just few minutes of flying an aircraft you can never judge the true capabilities of an aircraft until you have really flown it to its limits
Your point indicating that I haven't flown an f16 or any other aircraft so I can't give my opinion is as lame as one can get ...I can make the same case for you that how can you give a verdict about f16s superiority when you haven't flown it but it would be stupid of me to answer a lame reply by another lame Post
Well let me tell you something for a fact that I once met a test driver and an expert of Suzuki mehran euro2 and he ended up endorsing that car so much that I got a feeling that its the best car in Pakistan ...but I later realized it was his job to do so as he was getting benefit out of it ...Lol a test driver of such caliber can never know what a porche is believe you me !!!

Thank you for pointing out my misspelled word I was on my phone ... great achievement on your part .. and no my friend out of the 5 fighters he has also flown include - MK2000 & F-15 then PAF inventory aircraft such as F-7PG and Mirage 3. If you know such much then why sit here and argue ? PAF has to work with what it has in hand a lot of changes are about to take place in the next few years which you don't have and won't have any clue of trust me on that. Now back to the topic yes I agree we need a game changer in PAF and it is well on its way working just on that you shall have to wait and see rather then jumping the gun and comparing fighters with examples of Hondas and Suzuki. In the end the viper is still one of the most deadliest fighters in the world to date either you like it or not .

That pointing out wasn't to belittle you or by any means a sarcasm I just did it for my own clarity .......again m2k belongs to same generation so there is nothing to stand out as both aircratfts are roughly at par so is the case with f15 evolved in same era as its not clear was the aircraft flown belonged to latest variants or the earlier ones hence inconclusive
Don't tell me about changes mate I am hearing that for sometime now ...why everyone here has to claim things in a way that he is the only one to know about something drastic and significant going to happen....which never happens actually
We have been hearing about each and every aircraft finding its way in paf but it never actually happens ..what happens is we in the end get used or new f16s ....because we always have some strange excuses ....let me give you some examples

Back in mid 80s or 90s we could have gotten our hands onto m2ks thus restricting India to buy anything western besides we have already operated earlier variants of mirages so the transition wouldn't have been that difficult but what we did ...in the end India got those aircrafts and we had to live with Chinese options

When we were embargoed by west we had a chance to buy su27s from Ukraine as they were on offer ...had we acquired them we would have gotten spares from Ukraine directly and then later could have upgraded them with the help of China in case our terms with Russia wouldn't have improved ...which by the way are ...instead we were happy with f-6s and f-7s

In early 2000s we tested various aircrafts and we had some stupid reasons to reject them ...money wasn't a problem then ...for example I heard an interview of ACM tanvir saying " we cant handle such complex technology used in gripen" in such case I guess you are better off with f86 sabres Lol...btw what we bought then were f16s that too from original 72 down to 18 ...because we wanted to divert that budget to some other type (earthquake was an issue too)

In 2009-10 I came across an interview of ACM tanvir saying we would soon be acquiring 2 squadrons of high tech fc20 aircrafts from China but Nada ...

So don't tell me what is behind the scenes or what is going to come because all I can see throughout past 3 decades is f-16 ...

 

[batmannow]

I don't understand when people say F-16 is an 80's aircraft designed in 70's and is now obsolete or about to be obsolete. I breakdown a fighter's capabilities in three categories, hard power, soft power, and killing power.

Hard Power (the visible jet): Lets leave the stealth designs out for the moment. Comparing F-16's aerodynamically unstable but sleek design, low RCS, agility, maneuverability; combat load, range, endurance, G rating, etc. with other "modern" fighters of the same class like Typhon, Rafael, Grippen, MIG29, and J10, I don't see any thing missing or severely lacking to consider it "obsolete or about to become obsolete" in hard power. Subject to driver skills, It can still match / outclass any of the mentioned and some ... platforms any day of the year.

Soft Power: According to my classification, net working, avionics, detection, targeting, ECM, and computing power etc., fall in this category. Evolution in this area (barring stealth tech sensor fusion) has nothing to do with the airframe design of 60's or 70's, which itself has evolved per requirements.

Even in this area, F-16 has not been stagnant, in fact it has been at the forefront of receiving most upgrades in almost every aspect be it radar upgrades, networking, jamming, targeting or whatever. no other platform comes close to vipers in number of upgrades and today despite being a four decade old fighter it is still very potent, battle proven beyond any doubts and has on many occasions outclassed other contemporary fighters in exercises. Any one who says F-16 is 80's technology, is misinformed.

Killing/destructive Power: This depends on he armament and the flexibility in the soft systems to integrate. With todays advancement in computer tech, integration of western weapons on western jets is not an issue. Vipers have a wide variety of options to suit almost every mission profile. Almost all of the latest US weapons find their place on one of the hard points on vipers and they have been used very successfully in recent conflicts. I am not sure about the numbers, but I believe Vipers are the biggest singly fighter force in USAF, and because of that almost every new weapon gets integrated on them, making them ever more lethal and up to date in killing as well as soft power.

New advancements in military technology are very expensive and because the military spending across the world (specially the western world) has gone down significantly since the end of cold war, new tech is not going to be widely affordable and the fourth gen fighter would remain relevant for another two decades, I doubt that even US would be able to retire all of its F-16's (the low end fighter in 15/16 mix) in the next 10 years. I think Eagles and Falcons would remain the bulk of US air fighting machine for another decade with 22 and 35 filling the air dominance / Awe / fear factor role.

Let's break your argument then , that if F-16S WERE SO GREAT ,then why USA needs to build other aircrafts ?
& why to spend so much money on experiments ?
Answer is simple , F-16s were great fighting machines from its decade . but it doesn't belong to times of now & future ?

First thing first I was reffering to what his cousin has to say about f16s so our total discussion was based upon his opinion/experience not paf as a whole ...so what paf as a whole has tested or evaluated doesn't mean anything until that person has done it himself to make a comparison
Secondly in just few minutes of flying an aircraft you can never judge the true capabilities of an aircraft until you have really flown it to its limits
Your point indicating that I haven't flown an f16 or any other aircraft so I can't give my opinion is as lame as one can get ...I can make the same case for you that how can you give a verdict about f16s superiority when you haven't flown it but it would be stupid of me to answer a lame reply by another lame Post
Well let me tell you something for a fact that I once met a test driver and an expert of Suzuki mehran euro2 and he ended up endorsing that car so much that I got a feeling that its the best car in Pakistan ...but I later realized it was his job to do so as he was getting benefit out of it ...Lol a test driver of such caliber can never know what a porche is believe you me !!!


That pointing out wasn't to belittle you or by any means a sarcasm I just did it for my own clarity .......again m2k belongs to same generation so there is nothing to stand out as both aircratfts are roughly at par so is the case with f15 evolved in same era as its not clear was the aircraft flown belonged to latest variants or the earlier ones hence inconclusive
Don't tell me about changes mate I am hearing that for sometime now ...why everyone here has to claim things in a way that he is the only one to know about something drastic and significant going to happen....which never happens actually
We have been hearing about each and every aircraft finding its way in paf but it never actually happens ..what happens is we in the end get used or new f16s ....because we always have some strange excuses ....let me give you some examples

Back in mid 80s or 90s we could have gotten our hands onto m2ks thus restricting India to buy anything western besides we have already operated earlier variants of mirages so the transition wouldn't have been that difficult but what we did ...in the end India got those aircrafts and we had to live with Chinese options

When we were embargoed by west we had a chance to buy su27s from Ukraine as they were on offer ...had we acquired them we would have gotten spares from Ukraine directly and then later could have upgraded them with the help of China in case our terms with Russia wouldn't have improved ...which by the way are ...instead we were happy with f-6s and f-7s

In early 2000s we tested various aircrafts and we had some stupid reasons to reject them ...money wasn't a problem then ...for example I heard an interview of ACM tanvir saying " we cant handle such complex technology used in gripen" in such case I guess you are better off with f86 sabres Lol...btw what we bought then were f16s that too from original 72 down to 18 ...because we wanted to divert that budget to some other type (earthquake was an issue too)

In 2009-10 I came across an interview of ACM tanvir saying we would soon be acquiring 2 squadrons of high tech fc20 aircrafts from China but Nada ...

So don't tell me what is behind the scenes or what is going to come because all I can see throughout past 3 decades is f-16 ...

there is no doubt about having some lovers or beneficiaries of F-16s in our military establishment & they were the ones keeping our higher command tied down with F-16s deals ?
Even putting stupid fear of USA , which can be very angry if we go for other high end aircrafts from other countries ?
We have oppoutunities , even few of our high command were interested for them , like you said , su -27s & then mirrage 2000s , but strangly they were stopped at last ?
This whole story of F-16s needs to be investigated ?

 

[black-hawk_101]

Is PAF getting back their 14 remaining F-16s as 2 already arrived and 12 remaining there in.