PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

It's from time when PAF was looking into East as well as West for new birds. But the deal collapsed ultimately due to "reasons".

I know for sure UK,Italy,Austria,Spain and Portugal etc are flexible in their policies and we have good relations with them. In the past Pakistan received good quality hardware from the first two. The French,Germans and Swiss are rigid in their policies and are tilted more towards the Indians. Hopefully any collapsed deal of the past can be revitalised again as Global Dynamics are never constant.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PAF has Tried to acquire EFT in past and discussions moved ahead to the point where PAF actually formulated the framework of acquiring new birds plus surplus airframes alongside the involvement of BAE into Thunder program. It's from time when PAF was looking into East as well as West for new birds. But the deal collapsed ultimately due to "reasons".

It was around this time the PAF officially announced Project AZM.

I don't think it's a mystery. If the PAF is working on a real NGFA, then it will need a sustained cash outlay of at least $200-250 m per year, and that's assuming most inputs are coming COTS from China. But if you're trying to convert those COTS inputs to domestic ones, then that spending easily climbs to $500-600 m per year.

So, let's average it out to $300-350 m per year. That's how much Project AZM needs.

IMHO ... the PAF made the decision (maybe due to a lack of foreign loan support, political issues, etc) that it will put its free (but limited) cash on the NGFA. Pakistan doesn't have the fiscal capacity to sustain both a NGFA and a costly import, not without flexible financing conditions on the latter (impossible due to FATF as per @airomerix)

The PAF is now, officially, in 'eating grass' mode. Yes, it's not great in the short-term, it makes us look empty handed while all others are decking out with nice hardware. But all I ask is that we look at South Africa. Its projects (e.g., Cheetah, Rooivalk, Oryx, etc) came alive (albeit for a few years) because they ate grass, and now folks want their IP.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Pakistan doesn't have the fiscal capacity to sustain both a NGFA and a costly import,

We do have a track record of SPONSORED fundings in the past, as i recall the first batch of our F16s were funded by the Saudis(according to Zia) !!!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We do have a track record of SPONSORED fundings in the past, as i recall the first batch of our F16s were funded by the Saudis(according to Zia) !!!

Yea, different era. If we had foreign funding support, we would've used it yesterday.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

It was around this time the PAF officially announced Project AZM.

I don't think it's a mystery. If the PAF is working on a real NGFA, then it will need a sustained cash outlay of at least $200-250 m per year, and that's assuming most inputs are coming COTS from China. But if you're trying to convert those COTS inputs to domestic ones, then that spending easily climbs to $500-600 m per year.

So, let's average it out to $300-350 m per year. That's how much Project AZM needs.

IMHO ... the PAF made the decision (maybe due to a lack of foreign loan support, political issues, etc) that it will put its free (but limited) cash on the NGFA. Pakistan doesn't have the fiscal capacity to sustain both a NGFA and a costly import, not without flexible financing conditions on the latter (impossible due to FATF as per @airomerix)

The PAF is now, officially, in 'eating grass' mode. Yes, it's not great in the short-term, it makes us look empty handed while all others are decking out with nice hardware. But all I ask is that we look at South Africa. Its projects (e.g., Cheetah, Rooivalk, Oryx, etc) came alive (albeit for a few years) because they ate grass, and now folks want their IP.

How much years will AZM consume considering it is consuming about $350m per year??

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Yea, different era. If we had foreign funding support, we would've used it yesterday.

I think the Saudis need us more than ever!!!! Their internal fights,increased Iranian involvements and mass resentments among the ranks have made them more vulnerable than before?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

We do have a track record of SPONSORED fundings in the past, as i recall the first batch of our F16s were funded by the Saudis(according to Zia) !!!

I wish CSF/FMF (USA), Qatar and KSA fund our expansion and upgradation of F16s

 

[FuturePAF]

PAF for more than five decades has been successfully operating various fighters, and their variants from three major destinations namely the Chinese,the Americans and the Europeans(French) . This tri nation combination has borne PAF major dividends in terms of costs,availability and reliability regarding the platforms. PAF in my opinion will always seek new/refurbished fighters from three sources without tilting the balance to other two.
On this forum we Pakistanis have debated to death ,the various options PAF can exercise for its future needs and replacements. It is widely accepted that the Block3 and further, will be the best options available for the future upgrades for the Thunders. New Blocks of F16s are also considered along with the further upgrades of the remaining fleet. The Mirage fleet of PAF cannot be upgraded further because of their aging airframes. Further French supplies of hardware are not available owing to massive Indian pressure. This leaves us a question what other European source can be visited,some say the Russians(similar to Chinese tech). Since we have friendly ties with other European Nations why not revisit the Eurofighter Typhoons!!!

Indeed they are very expensive machines, but lately many European nations have considered selling them because of varying reasons, like the Italians and the Austrians.
https://www.flightglobal.com/austria-to-retire-eurofighter-typhoons-from-2020/124735.article
PAF pilots have had a taste of Typhoons on numerous occasions,with ACM Tanvir Mahmood also flying it. Some say the Saudi and the Qatari airforces do have some PAF inputs on their Typhoon operations and acquisitions!!!!

Already posted in this forum by mike2000 in 2016 ,tells us the enormous potential of this beast.

There is a continual evolution of many more deadly weapons systems such as SPEAR missiles, brimstone, meteor, Storm shadow, Marte-ER, sensors and information management systems,long lasting airframes and Engines.

There has been a valid concern on their affordability factor. Nevertheless there is no harm in seeking the second hand options to begin with. These beauties in the hands of the PAF professionals will seek havoc on the minds of our arch enemy. We will continue to maintain our psychological edge over them for decades to come.

Most capabilities which can be obtained by buying the euro fighter can be developed by the Chinese and applied to the J-10 at lower cost. If the risk of sanctions prevented with a firm deal for their use, the Eurofighter even in a limited number of say 36-40 can allow the PAF to maintain an edge (being able to acquire nearly ever European weapon the Indians can buy for their Rafales), but it’s the psychological factor which would make the Eurofighter worth purchasing.

Indians would discuss the Eurofighter to death for the next 20 years, just like they were bogged down by the psychological weight of the PAF operating the F-16s; which was reinforced by the events of Feb 2019.

It all comes back to finances. It’s best we upgrade our mirages and rebuild our economy in this particularly difficult time, and perhaps by then the planned 4th upgrade of the Eurofighters will have been developed, and we will know through our experience with AESA equipped JF-17s what capabilities we still feel we need to acquire to maintain the edge.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Most capabilities which can be obtained by buying the euro fighter can be developed in house

INDEED, the only thing that worries me is the METEOR missile. If we can get the technology or an equivalent i will be happy. The Chinese Airframes and Engines have quarter the shelf life of their nearest Western counterparts.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

How much years will AZM consume considering it is consuming about $350m per year??

The CAS said AZM won't be a factor until 2030, at least.

I think the Saudis need us more than ever!!!! Their internal fights,increased Iranian involvements and mass resentments among the ranks have made them more vulnerable than before?

Saudis rely on Washington, not Rawalpindi.

Most capabilities which can be obtained by buying the euro fighter can be developed by the Chinese and applied to the J-10 at lower cost. If the risk of sanctions prevented with a firm deal for their use, the Eurofighter even in a limited number of say 36-40 can allow the PAF to maintain an edge (being able to acquire nearly ever European weapon the Indians can buy for their Rafales), but it’s the psychological factor which would make the Eurofighter worth purchasing.

Indians would discuss the Eurofighter to death for the next 20 years, just like they were bogged down by the psychological weight of the PAF operating the F-16s; which was reinforced by the events of Feb 2019.

It all comes back to finances. It’s best we upgrade our mirages and rebuild our economy in this particularly difficult time, and perhaps by then the planned 4th upgrade of the Eurofighters will have been developed, and we will know through our experience with AESA equipped JF-17s what capabilities we still feel we need to acquire to maintain the edge.

If it had been India in our situation, they would've credited the alleged Su-30MKI kill to the JF-17, precisely to give to the JF-17 a psychological edge. They would've died with that claim, even if it was a lie.

 

[Kharral]

The PAF is now, officially, in 'eating grass' mode.

If that's the case then we will surely get somewhere.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Saudis rely on Washington, not Rawalpindi.

Correct,but we have always been their back up!!! Trump recently has been a bit tough with the Saudis.

 

[Kharral]

I wish CSF/FMF (USA), Qatar and KSA fund our expansion and upgradation of F16s

Shame on You.

 

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Waste of money, since France will never approve Meteor sale to Pak and US will never approve AIM-120D to Pak (assuming it even gets integrated to EFT).
So at most Pak might get US approval for US AIM-120C which is not worth spending 4+ billion dollar on a new fighter.

Their was a chance of France approving Meteors for PAF but the mpments passed once IAF gave written word to MBDA it will procure 400-500 Meteors over the years.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

since France will never approve Meteor sale to Pak and US will never approve AIM-120D to Pak

I see some Over Worrying neighbour.

Shame on You.

Na bhai thats his opinion.