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PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

Zraver, Mobility is not really an issue for Pakistan.Most of our assests are deployed right near the border because our country is very small so Army has deployed **** load of tanks etc near border and cold start doctrine won't work...trust me on this.It took India several WEEKS to mobilize last time in 2002 where as Pakistan Army mobilized within few days.
 
Zraver, Mobility is not really an issue for Pakistan.Most of our assests are deployed right near the border because our country is very small so Army has deployed **** load of tanks etc near border and cold start doctrine won't work...trust me on this.It took India several WEEKS to mobilize last time in 2002 where as Pakistan Army mobilized within few days.

Mobility is an issue, trust me on this. Unless of course you expect India to only attack where you have units and only with the same number of units so its a fair fight lol. Haivng 2000+ tanks along the border means zip, if you need them in sectors A-C and you only have 200 in that area.

As for India taking several weeks to mobilize. That was then, what about now? If the past was doomed to be the future, the Pakistan might as well give up now. She hasn't beat India yet so can't beat India. We both no the last war doesn't determine who wins the next won, skill, will and tools make that decision. Likewise India's slow mobilization last time, doe snot mean they will always mobilize slow. In fact Cold Start was designed to allow India to beat Pakistan to the punch while the rest of the IA get its act together.
 
Mobility is an issue, trust me on this. Unless of course you expect India to only attack where you have units and only with the same number of units so its a fair fight lol. Haivng 2000+ tanks along the border means zip, if you need them in sectors A-C and you only have 200 in that area.

As for India taking several weeks to mobilize. That was then, what about now? If the past was doomed to be the future, the Pakistan might as well give up now. She hasn't beat India yet so can't beat India. We both no the last war doesn't determine who wins the next won, skill, will and tools make that decision. Likewise India's slow mobilization last time, doe snot mean they will always mobilize slow. In fact Cold Start was designed to allow India to beat Pakistan to the punch while the rest of the IA get its act together.
I think blain2 can give you good analysis on this.Pakistan Army does know about cold start doctrine therefore they must have some doctrine to counter Cold Start..The only border where we don't have enough assests (tanks) to mobilize quickly is LOC where tanks are hardly used.Pakistan give up?What do you mean by that?We're not planning on invading India....The defenses are there so that Indians don't capture our main cities.We don't have strategic depth therefore it is necessaray for us to have large defenses near border...In 65 war we did not have enough assests but thankfully Air Force saved Lahore..We did learn a lesson and have deployed our assests near border areas so that mobilization can take place very quickly.Of course Indians think Pakistan will not be able to counter Cold Start Doctrine and they made stupid mistake by heavily publicizing it.They're in for a ugly surprise.Considering our border size with India we have more then enough assests to deploy quickly..Far quicker then India.70% of our Army is on Eastern Borders.
 
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There are several reasons why Pakistan got a 3 man tank. However those reasons valid though they may be to Pakistans need, do not change the basic differences between a 4 man and 3 man crewed tank. 4 man v 3 man would be the same factors regardless of who since its a simple matter of what.



Best guesstimates on the Indian "Cold Start" say the plan is to send units into Pakistan to engage and defeat the Pakistan Army before it can fully mobilize and get in among the Pakistani people near the border so that the nuclear threshold is not breached. Say heaven forbid war breaks out and suddenly 1000 Indian tanks with other supporting assets are tryign to force their way into Pakistan. If India could and indeed did beat Pakistan to the mobilization punch you would have far fewer Pakistani assets tryign to defend your country. They have to do the work of a larger force or risk Pakistans defeat which means the work load goes up. Even if they are not sititgn guns blazing (I never implied that) they will be doing other things besides sleeping. Fueling-arming- pre-combat checks- moving to the border, moving to critical sectors in case they need to be committed to battle to strop a breech or launch a counter attack, maintenance, falling back to avoid encirclement, moving up to threaten flanks, moving under cover and/or at night to avoid Indian air or rocket artillery, rearming after battle, repairing after battle, more fueling and maintenance- the list can go on and on depending on the situation. battles are fluid and the actual fighting is but a tiny part of the complex dance of events going on. Have you ever seen those complex gear/pendulum driven grandfather clocks? They are like a battle. The visible second and minute hands are the actual fighting. However if you look behind the clock face there are wheels within wheels and thousands of teeth that must mesh of the who thing breaks down.



1991 was 100 hours of ground combat, plus a couple of days of immediate pre-war movement. Not long as wars go, but almost non-stop. Go back to my note on "Cold Start". If India beats Pakistan to the punch, unless those Pakistani assets that do get into the fight can blunt the Indian attack, Pakistan will see Indian tanks rolling for miles. In fact best open source materials say the Indian's depend on beating the Pakistani border and quick reaction units in order to deliver a defeat and avoid a nuclear war.

Do you think those outnumbered Pakistani units trying to defend thier nation will be able to find much time for sleep?


Sir, as i said above, i say it again, u r the expert and definitely u know better about armored warfare. PA is very well aware of the Cold Start Doctrine and we have done our preparation, during PA largest ever exercise Zar-e-Momin way back in late eighties, 13 new concepts were designed, and this exercise main objective was countering the cold start kind of doctrines. PA is investing huge time, money & efforts in countering the indian cold doctrine thread. The numbers of tanks in PA has increased substantially, the Al Khalid & its future variants and upgrading of other tanks is a part of this exercise.
Now, u r right Indian Armor forces are huge & PA can't match them 1 on 1. Plus they are sitting next to the border.

Firstly, PA has a good communication & intelligence network. If indian forces move toward the international border, we will get indications, plus their cold doctrine thrust would be in the plain & desert areas of Multan, Bahawalpur, Rahim Yar Khan side of areas, where PA has plenty of forces deployed. Just like tanks are being upgraded, so have been the mechanized infantry battalions (MIB in PA terminology).

2ndly, as said we can't match them 1 on 1, PA has made considerable efforts in the LAT & HAT units. Light Anti Tank & Heavy Anti Tank battalions. HAT battalions equipped with TOWs & Baktar Shikan ATGM, fixed positions, mobile carriers on M113 APC & jeeps platforms. When my dad was doing his Anti Tank course, i had asked the same question that indians have huge numbers, he replied we are ready for them and will make a graveyard of their tanks at pakistani soil. I was little at that time so took it as a patriotic comment, but after a few years, when came to know about the preparations PA has done, they will give indian armor a fight they will remember.
So to counter indian cold start doctrine, PA has tanks and huge ATGM network. Plus, indian armor for the time being aren't that superior, their T-72 are well known, u sir urself know what americans made of iraqi T-72s, i read somewhere their T-72s are being upgraded with night fighting equipment now, not a very old article.
Till they get their T-90s in huge numbers, we will be having upgraded Al Khalids, which aren't that far away. They sure will take on the T-90s.

Other operational issues faced by armor, u are spot on as u r the expert. I said what i knew about the working of our army, we have a limited offensive plans, so we think about that, we don't wana conquer india, they for sure wanna do, so let them come, in 1965 Battle of Chawinda war our foot soldiers strapped anti tank mines to their chests and lied down infront of the advancing indian tanks & stopped them, we will do that again. But indians won't be able to succeed in their cold start doctrine. :pakistan:
 
Sir, as i said above, i say it again, u r the expert and definitely u know better about armored warfare. PA is very well aware of the Cold Start Doctrine and we have done our preparation, during PA largest ever exercise Zar-e-Momin way back in late eighties, 13 new concepts were designed, and this exercise main objective was countering the cold start kind of doctrines. PA is investing huge time, money & efforts in countering the indian cold doctrine thread. The numbers of tanks in PA has increased substantially, the Al Khalid & its future variants and upgrading of other tanks is a part of this exercise.
Now, u r right Indian Armor forces are huge & PA can't match them 1 on 1. Plus they are sitting next to the border.

Firstly, PA has a good communication & intelligence network. If indian forces move toward the international border, we will get indications, plus their cold doctrine thrust would be in the plain & desert areas of Multan, Bahawalpur, Rahim Yar Khan side of areas, where PA has plenty of forces deployed. Just like tanks are being upgraded, so have been the mechanized infantry battalions (MIB in PA terminology).

India too has its intel and plans. For the sake of what if- what if they do break the border open? I don't know the actual locations of units on either side. However, bear with me on this. Patriot said, "Pakistan's defenses are concentrated on the border." I think he makes a bit of a mistake. Of course there will be some tanks there, but most will be held back some distance. The bulk of the defenses will be infantry and ATGM's. Now, I don't doubt that those defenders will do their best to win, and if they can't win, to make the Indian victory as costly as possible. However military history and operational facts means the attacker has the edge. While the attacker does need 3-1 odds in conventional wisdom to overcome the defenders. The attacker gets to choose the time and place of the attack to achieve those odds.

Both sides are trying to sniff out the others plans and trying to counter what they think the other side is doing. For India this means sniffing out where they can achieve the superiority in arms to force the breach. The worst thing Pakistan could do is have its mobile reserves to close to the border, which is as bad as too far. The bulk of Pakistan's reserves will be concentrated some distance back for a couple of reasons.

1. If Indian arms force a rapid breach there is less risk of rapid encirclement

2. By pulling back say a day to several days travel instead of a bunch of little units close that might not be able to stop a penetration. That also leaves a bunch of other little units to far away to have any bearing on the battle. You instead have concentrations big enough to launch weighted counter-attacks that actually have a chance of achieving an objective. Imagine the border as the base of a triangle, a day or mores travel under combat conditions (threat of enemy air attacks, blown bridges etc) as the sides. Where those two sides come together is where you want your reserves. The closer you are to the border, the less border that unit can cover and so you need to have more smaller units to guard the border.

2ndly, as said we can't match them 1 on 1, PA has made considerable efforts in the LAT & HAT units. Light Anti Tank & Heavy Anti Tank battalions. HAT battalions equipped with TOWs & Baktar Shikan ATGM, fixed positions, mobile carriers on M113 APC & jeeps platforms.

In 1973 the ATGM's ripped the Israelis apart. It was a shock and a lot of people pronounced that the tank was dead. Of course Chobbam type armors and ERA put lie to that claim. In the most recent use of massed ATGMs, the 2006 Lebanon war, the results were surprising. The Israelis took less losses per missiles fired than they did in 73. Signifigantly so, modern armor is very well protected against ATGM's lacking a top down attack capability. Those anti-tank units will kill some Indians, but the chance of them stopping the attack is pretty remote. They are there to slow the pace of the Indian advance. They are performing a mission much like the Armored Cavalry Regiments of the US Army did on the inter-German and West German-Czechoslovakian borders- slow the pace of the enemy advance so that the armored units have time to fix the enemy intentions and then move to counter. This strategy was first developed by Germany in the wake of WWI when the Treaty of Versailles limited the size of the German Army and Poland was a real threat. What Germany came up with as a solution to its problem was the sue of Frei Korps (Volunteer units of WWI vets not bound by the treaty. The Nazi party had such a unit- the SA) on the border to develop an enemy attack and slow it down so the Heer (regular army) could then launch counter attacks. During WWII this tactic cost the Russians millions of losses. It wasn't enough to stop the Russians, they simple had too much weight. But that tactic cost them millions of lives. The US Army copied it post war.

Those Pakistani troops will do their duty, but don't expect too much from what is basically a suicide mission. The real guardians of Pakistan will be the mobile reserves. Not only will they have to finally stop the Indian advance, but if a political settlement is not forthcoming, will have to use force to eject the Indian troops from Pakistani soil.


When my dad was doing his Anti Tank course, i had asked the same question that indians have huge numbers, he replied we are ready for them and will make a graveyard of their tanks at pakistani soil. I was little at that time so took it as a patriotic comment, but after a few years, when came to know about the preparations PA has done, they will give indian armor a fight they will remember.

No one denies that the border troops would do their best. Much like if you were out walking with your family and a gang of thugs attacked. I know I would tell my family to run and call the police, while I went down fighting to keep them safe. The border troops face that type of mission.


So to counter indian cold start doctrine, PA has tanks and huge ATGM network. Plus, indian armor for the time being aren't that superior, their T-72 are well known, u sir urself know what americans made of iraqi T-72s,

A couple of points of note here.

1. The US used the M829A1 (91) and M829A3 (03) rounds which Pakistan has no real equivalent. The Auto-loader in the AK/AZ is the same as on the T-72 and this imposes a maximum penetrator length under 600mm. This is going to limit performance.

2. Everyone is assuming the T-90's are going to the units detailed for the Cold Start mission. These tanks have much better protection than a T-72, both in terms of actual armor and in ERA. The Kontack-5 is no joke. It claims a reduction of 30% in penetration values vs KE penetrators. At the Heide tests in Germany on former Soviet and East German equipment the K-5 was (rumored) able to take on the M829A1 which so devastated Iraq and render the T-72 invulnerable. This lead to the M829A2 and A3 series.

The latest Indian T-90's about to be entering service will have the Russian ceramic inserts replaced with India's own Kachan ceramic. The ERA has been upgraded to Kacktus HERA, and a swiss APS has been added. Those tows are not going to be that effective. The newest T-90's also have an improved autoloader capable of handling shells like the BM42M series which is a long rod penetrator design giving them superior gun power over the AK/AZ. Its going to be a contest of maneuver with the side with the most tactical and operational skill (getting the other guy where you want him so your tools of war can beat his tools of war) who wins.


i read somewhere their T-72s are being upgraded with night fighting equipment now, not a very old article.

The T-72's are like the AZ tanks, not front line equipment.

Till they get their T-90s in huge numbers, we will be having upgraded Al Khalids, which aren't that far away. They sure will take on the T-90s.

The latest T-90 is slower, but better protected and has a superior gun system (not sure if they have the rounds to make use of its potential)

Other operational issues faced by armor, u are spot on as u r the expert. I said what i knew about the working of our army, we have a limited offensive plans, so we think about that, we don't wana conquer india, they for sure wanna do, so let them come, in 1965 Battle of Chawinda war our foot soldiers strapped anti tank mines to their chests and lied down infront of the advancing indian tanks & stopped them, we will do that again. But indians won't be able to succeed in their cold start doctrine. :pakistan:

If war comes, the Indians will break the border open, the real fight will be in how far they get before stopping (because of Pakistani force of arms or political pressure) and if they can be pushed out. Assuming anything else would leave Pakistan dangerously exposed. Your officers are professional and thus I feel pretty confident that they are not planning on a best case scenario, but a worst case situation. If you plan on meeting the challenge of a worst case situation, then if real life is easier- you win easier, if its harder you don't have as much of a gap between plans and reality.
 
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Well i do agree with zraver but i want to add one thing.

Not every part of punjab or sindh is tank able. I don't know the present doctrine but in the early eighties my father(a sapper) was assigned the duty of checking the soil conditions(by collecting soil samples) of some sectors of punjab in order to see that which area can be used for tank warfare and which can't, especially during the monsoon rain season. I am sure the data has been upgraded every once in a while.
 
A concentrated combined arms armor attack ( say 300 state of the art tanks) at a narrow front will always be able to break thru anti tank defenses, one would need dedicated tank buster platform such as A-10 to counter such threat or similar number of tank units. Since India would always have numerical superiority, the danger of such a breakthrough exists.

I was under the impression that PA strategy of ‘Offensive defense’ was specifically formulated to counter such a threat; mainly by pre-empting a thrust into Indian territory they a massed assault by our own strike corps. Thus PA also occupies some Indian territory thru numerical advantage at a weak spot. In Indo-Pak scenario, don’t think any other strategy is realistically viable. (Even though in 1971 a planned attack by the 1st Armored Div in West never materialized and in 1965 a coward Div Commander botched up the thrust at Khem Karan.

IMO, in addition to the quality of weaponry, quality of leadership is of utmost importance. PA has long suffered by having quality leadership sidelined and mediocre officers promoted. Nosy Haider’s book description of the PAF under AM Zafar Chaudhry is frightening. Even if half of what he has written is true, one wonders how such nincompoops such as Zafar Chaudhry or Zia ul Haq can reach such exalted positions in the Pakistan armed forces. Even the best quality armor with quantity would not overcome paucity of leadership.
 
Interesting discussion, thanks for giving us your valuable time and input Zraver. I just wanted to add a video of the Al-Zarrar autoloader (found on another forum, Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info, credit goes to "Rafi" for posting it):
Auto-loader shown re-loading the gun at 0:29.

EDIT: also posted in the general multimedia section by MuradK sahib.
 
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In my humble opinion, the autoloader shown in the above footage seems that of a T-80 ud instead of Al zarrar for a couple of reasons

1. Al Zarrar has semi-automatic loading system instead of fully automatic.

2. The formation was comprised of different mbts (you could see Al Khalid in the footage right at the begining) and the circular shape at the end of autoloader as well as loading mechanism was VERY similar to that of T-80 ud autoloader.

Just my observation.
 
The T-80 ud is a formidable asset especially in Indo-Pak scenario since it is a further development of the high end T-64 that was developed in the 60's by USSR to counter contemporary western main battle tanks. T-64 was so technically advanced and complex (for that era) and expensive that the Russians decided to develop it under secrecy and only in small numbers. To complement the more advanced T-64, they developed the low end T-72. I am not saying that T-72 was an inferior tank in any way. Just that T-64 was a higher priority for Soviets and this was the reason why it was never exported (until 80's). The T-72 however, saw more development since it was massively developed and exported to so many nations. Many nations developed their own versions based on the T-72 such as Polish PT-91 series, Yugoslavian M84 series (includes Serbia, Croatia etc), Chinese Type 80 series etc. Initially the Indians were also a little curious about the T-80U and were looking for it but Pakistan bought it before they did hence their priority shifted towards T-90. I still believe that T-80 vs. T90S are to some extent comparable tanks however T-90S excels in some departments. The real threat to T90S is the Al Khalid and this is the reason why India no longer needs the T-90S anymore but more lethal T-90M Vladimir for which we have been developing The Al Khalid 1.
 
thank you for such nice words......true,pak force is the greatest,man,how can we bloody indians even think of facing the invincible al-khalid!!!......btw,def.pk is changing!!!....

MAYBE UR RIGHT:wave::cheers:ON UR OWN PRODUCTS LIKE ARJUNKSKY OR LCA MUSHKIL HAI YAAR :sniper:STILL U CAN TRY:taz::bounce::flame::pakistan:
 


1. type 99
2. Al-Khalid


SPECIFICATIONS
Crew: 3
Weight: 54t
Engine: 1,500hp liquid cooled diesel
Transmission: Mechanical, planetary
Track: Metallic with RMSh, with rubber-tyred road wheels
Suspension: Torsion bar
Radio: Receive/transmit, telephone, laser communications
Dimension: Length: 11.00m; Height: 2.20m; Width: 3.40m
Ground pressure: N/A
Cruising range: 450km, or 600km with external tanks
Speed: Max road 80km/h; max off-road 60km/h; average cross-country 35~40km/h; max swim N/A
Fording depths: 5m with snorkel
Main gun: 125mm smoothbore
Rate of fire: 8 rounds/min (autoloader), 1~2 r/min (manual load)
Elevation/Depression: N/A
Auxiliary weapon: One coaxial 7.62mm machine gun; one 12.7mm air-defence machine gun
Fire control: Laser rangefinder input, onboard computer, wind sensor, and control panel




SPECIFICATIONS
Crew: 3
Weight: 48t
Engine: Ukraine built 6TD 1,200hp liquid cooled diesel
Transmission: Mechanical, planetary
Track: Metallic with RMSh, with rubber-tyred road wheels
Suspension: Torsion bar
Radio: Receive/transmit, telephone
Dimension: Length: 10.07m; Height: 2.40m; Width: 3.50m
Ground Pressure: 26hp/t
Cruising Range: 450km
Speed: Max road 65km/h; max off-road 45km/h
Fording Depths: 5m with snorkel
Main Gun: Indigenous 125mm smoothbore, 39 rounds
Rate of Fire: 8 rounds/min (autoloader), 1~2 r/min (manual load)
Elevation/Depression: N/A
Auxiliary Weapon: One coaxial 7.62mm machine gun; one 12.7mm air-defence machine gun
Fire Control: Laser rangefinder input, onboard computer, wind sensor, and control panel
 
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