What's new

Overstating the China Threat?

somnath

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
269
Reaction score
0
Country
India
Location
India
One of Washington’s leading members of Congress, J. Randy Forbes, and a brilliant analyst, Elbridge Colby, sound the alarm. They believe that China has made precipitous gains against the United States’ military power and that the U.S. must urgently increase its defense efforts to maintain its superiority.

Forbes and Colby assert that “the balance of military power in the Asia-Pacific writ large is under serious and growing pressure from China’s military-modernization efforts,” and the U.S. “edge in technology … is eroding.” They caution that China’s military buildup poses “critical” challenges “to achieving U.S. political-military objectives in the areas that have traditionally been part of our defense umbrella,” namely “challenges to [the United States’] military superiority in the crucial air, sea, space, and cyberspace domains.” Most alarming, Forbes and Colby hold that failure to act could have “tremendous strategic consequences” for the United States and its allies.

To support these claims, Forbes and Colby provide no new details (or old ones, for that matter) about China’s military buildup, instead quoting prominent officials. Their “evidence” consists of Commander of U.S. Pacific Command Admiral Samuel Locklear’s statement that “our historic dominance … is diminishing;” Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Frank Kendall’s assertion that the United States’ technological superiority in defense “is being challenged in ways … not seen for decades, particularly in the Asia-Pacific region;” and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey’s claim that “our technology edge [is eroding].” Forbes and Colby seem not to mind that the job of these officials is to cry wolf whenever they see any creature moving, lest they be charged with having ignored a menace if said wolf does materialize. Forbes and Colby also ignore that the military budget and the generals’ command depend on finding a new enemy now that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are winding down. And they do not take into account the military’s long record of overestimating the dangers posed by America’s enemies, as notably occurred in the case of the former Soviet Union.

A careful reader notes that the two leading analysts do recognize that China’s A2/AD defenses are full of holes, akin—in their words—to “a block of Swiss cheese,” and it is incredibly difficult to protect a “huge territory”. Forbes and Colby should have to added that Chinese submarines are noisy and pose little threat; China’s single aircraft carrier offers scant opportunity to project power against the diminished but still-vast American fleet; and that China’s military buildup is dramatic only if one ignores that it started the “race” from far behind. It is easy to achieve double-digit percent increases in military spending when one’s baseline budget was $30 billion in 2000 and had scraped $160 billion in 2012. By contrast, the United States’ defense budget in 2012 was more than 400 percent larger—about $682 billion— than China’s and remained $30 billion greater than the defense budgets of China, Russia, the United Kingdom, Japan, France, Saudi Arabia, India, Germany, Italy and Brazil combined.

Forbes and Colby’s military shopping list includes:

- Additional Virginia-class submarines and unspecified new technologies designed to “sustain our undersea-warfare advantage.”
- Unspecified future aircraft with a host of novel capabilities designed to meet “emerging threat environments in the Western Pacific.”
- Additional long-range bombers that would improve on the B-2.
- New, unspecified “credible kinetic and nonkinetic means to deter potential adversaries from extending a conflict into space.”
- “[A] new generation of offensive munitions.”
- Greater spending, generally speaking, on “cutting-edge and next-generation technologies.”


Mark Gunzinger, who shares the same concerns, co-authored a document with Jan Van Tol, Andrew Krepinevich, and Jim Thomas on the Air-Sea Battle concept in which the authors recommended a host of military expenditures, including several technological and material developments and increases. These include:

- Unspecified “long-range penetrating and stand-off EA-capable platforms (manned and/or unmanned).”
- “Quantity obscurants, decoys, and false target generators for both offensive and defensive [electronic warfare] missions.”
- Developing alternatives to GPS navigation and reducing United States’ reliance on GPS for its “precision guided weapons.”
- Directed-energy weapons (DEW)
- Additional unmanned undersea vehicles for intelligence purposes.
- Developing new mobile mines “deployable by submarines and stealthy Air Force bombers.”
- “Stockpiling” precision-guided weapons.
- Additional air tankers.

One wonders what good these kinds of extra hardware would do in light of the fact that China is engaging in a low-key strategy of salami tactics that relies on enforcing its disputed maritime claims with mainly non-military assets. These include using civilian patrol vessels, which are “armed” with nothing more than water cannons and grappling hooks, and cutting the cables of exploration vessels belonging to other countries. Most important, do these analysts really presume that the United States should threaten China with war if it persists in claiming that several piles of uninhabited rocks and the waters around them are within China’s exclusive economic zone or air defense identification zone?

More needs to be heard about China’s actual intentions and interests before it is appropriate to conclude that the U.S. government should invest large sums in technologies that have strategic value only in outright war. Why would China seek to “eat our lunch,” as Pentagon officials are fond of saying, or replace the United States as a global power? It has no ideology that calls for bringing its regime’s ideals to the rest of the world. And it is under enormous pressure to attend to a host of serious domestic concerns, including an aging population, persistent environmental challenges, and an economic slowdown. Speaking of domestic challenges—won’t the United States be stronger in the longer term if it chooses to invest more of its military spending, on fixing its aging infrastructure, creating jobs, and revitalizing its educational system?

Amitai Etzioni is a university professor and professor of international relations at The George Washington University. He served as a senior adviser to the Carter White House and taught at Columbia University, Harvard University, and the University of California at Berkeley. His latest book is Hot Spots: American Foreign Policy in a Post-Human-Rights World.

Overstating the China Threat? | The Diplomat
 
One of Washington’s leading members of Congress, J. Randy Forbes, and a brilliant analyst, Elbridge Colby, sound the alarm. They believe that China has made precipitous gains against the United States’ military power and that the U.S. must urgently increase its defense efforts to maintain its superiority.

Forbes and Colby assert that “the balance of military power in the Asia-Pacific writ large is under serious and growing pressure from China’s military-modernization efforts,” and the U.S. “edge in technology … is eroding.” They caution that China’s military buildup poses “critical” challenges “to achieving U.S. political-military objectives in the areas that have traditionally been part of our defense umbrella,” namely “challenges to [the United States’] military superiority in the crucial air, sea, space, and cyberspace domains.” Most alarming, Forbes and Colby hold that failure to act could have “tremendous strategic consequences” for the United States and its allies.

To support these claims, Forbes and Colby provide no new details (or old ones, for that matter) about China’s military buildup, instead quoting prominent officials. Their “evidence” consists of Commander of U.S. Pacific Command Admiral Samuel Locklear’s statement that “our historic dominance … is diminishing;” Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Frank Kendall’s assertion that the United States’ technological superiority in defense “is being challenged in ways … not seen for decades, particularly in the Asia-Pacific region;” and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey’s claim that “our technology edge [is eroding].” Forbes and Colby seem not to mind that the job of these officials is to cry wolf whenever they see any creature moving, lest they be charged with having ignored a menace if said wolf does materialize. Forbes and Colby also ignore that the military budget and the generals’ command depend on finding a new enemy now that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are winding down. And they do not take into account the military’s long record of overestimating the dangers posed by America’s enemies, as notably occurred in the case of the former Soviet Union.

A careful reader notes that the two leading analysts do recognize that China’s A2/AD defenses are full of holes, akin—in their words—to “a block of Swiss cheese,” and it is incredibly difficult to protect a “huge territory”. Forbes and Colby should have to added that Chinese submarines are noisy and pose little threat; China’s single aircraft carrier offers scant opportunity to project power against the diminished but still-vast American fleet; and that China’s military buildup is dramatic only if one ignores that it started the “race” from far behind. It is easy to achieve double-digit percent increases in military spending when one’s baseline budget was $30 billion in 2000 and had scraped $160 billion in 2012. By contrast, the United States’ defense budget in 2012 was more than 400 percent larger—about $682 billion— than China’s and remained $30 billion greater than the defense budgets of China, Russia, the United Kingdom, Japan, France, Saudi Arabia, India, Germany, Italy and Brazil combined.

Forbes and Colby’s military shopping list includes:

- Additional Virginia-class submarines and unspecified new technologies designed to “sustain our undersea-warfare advantage.”
- Unspecified future aircraft with a host of novel capabilities designed to meet “emerging threat environments in the Western Pacific.”
- Additional long-range bombers that would improve on the B-2.
- New, unspecified “credible kinetic and nonkinetic means to deter potential adversaries from extending a conflict into space.”
- “[A] new generation of offensive munitions.”
- Greater spending, generally speaking, on “cutting-edge and next-generation technologies.”


Mark Gunzinger, who shares the same concerns, co-authored a document with Jan Van Tol, Andrew Krepinevich, and Jim Thomas on the Air-Sea Battle concept in which the authors recommended a host of military expenditures, including several technological and material developments and increases. These include:

- Unspecified “long-range penetrating and stand-off EA-capable platforms (manned and/or unmanned).”
- “Quantity obscurants, decoys, and false target generators for both offensive and defensive [electronic warfare] missions.”
- Developing alternatives to GPS navigation and reducing United States’ reliance on GPS for its “precision guided weapons.”
- Directed-energy weapons (DEW)
- Additional unmanned undersea vehicles for intelligence purposes.
- Developing new mobile mines “deployable by submarines and stealthy Air Force bombers.”
- “Stockpiling” precision-guided weapons.
- Additional air tankers.

One wonders what good these kinds of extra hardware would do in light of the fact that China is engaging in a low-key strategy of salami tactics that relies on enforcing its disputed maritime claims with mainly non-military assets. These include using civilian patrol vessels, which are “armed” with nothing more than water cannons and grappling hooks, and cutting the cables of exploration vessels belonging to other countries. Most important, do these analysts really presume that the United States should threaten China with war if it persists in claiming that several piles of uninhabited rocks and the waters around them are within China’s exclusive economic zone or air defense identification zone?

More needs to be heard about China’s actual intentions and interests before it is appropriate to conclude that the U.S. government should invest large sums in technologies that have strategic value only in outright war. Why would China seek to “eat our lunch,” as Pentagon officials are fond of saying, or replace the United States as a global power? It has no ideology that calls for bringing its regime’s ideals to the rest of the world. And it is under enormous pressure to attend to a host of serious domestic concerns, including an aging population, persistent environmental challenges, and an economic slowdown. Speaking of domestic challenges—won’t the United States be stronger in the longer term if it chooses to invest more of its military spending, on fixing its aging infrastructure, creating jobs, and revitalizing its educational system?

Amitai Etzioni is a university professor and professor of international relations at The George Washington University. He served as a senior adviser to the Carter White House and taught at Columbia University, Harvard University, and the University of California at Berkeley. His latest book is Hot Spots: American Foreign Policy in a Post-Human-Rights World.

Overstating the China Threat? | The Diplomat

No war is possible now,certainly not between nuclear powers,no.

But yeah economic wars will be fought
 
I read that, cool story.

China is upgrading its army in every aspect.

The only reason it looks as if China is not catching up fast is because the last 20 years was used to just build up the infrastructure, much like learning programming, first 2-3 years you can't do much, but come 4th year, you can do a lot.

New infantry assault vehicles, anti air vehicles, tank, fighters, helicopters, planes, 120,000 ton destoryers, nuclear aircraft carriers, advanced missiles, even new gun, new uniform, gear, and much much more.

The days of cheap equipments are over. The newer Chinese models cost just as much as their American counter parts.


China's goal is always partial readiness by 2020, and complete readiness by 2030. By that meaning capable of taking on the US by 2030.

Anti access is over, now it's all out offence. We are entering that stage now. No war is to be fought on Chinese land.
 
I read that, cool story.

China is upgrading its army in every aspect.

The only reason it looks as if China is not catching up fast is because the last 20 years was used to just build up the infrastructure, much like learning programming, first 2-3 years you can't do much, but come 4th year, you can do a lot.

New infantry assault vehicles, anti air vehicles, tank, fighters, helicopters, planes, 120,000 ton destoryers, nuclear aircraft carriers, advanced missiles, even new gun, new uniform, gear, and much much more.

The days of cheap equipments are over. The newer Chinese models cost just as much as their American counter parts.


China's goal is always partial readiness by 2020, and complete readiness by 2030. By that meaning capable of taking on the US by 2030.

Anti access is over, now it's all out offence. We are entering that stage now. No war is to be fought on Chinese land.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
I believe China govenrment very pragmatic about commit a naval war over some uninhabited island with no value except the resource rich beneath the sea. Will China government commit to fight a war that can escalated cost of the war over trillions dollar in term of monetary and human life. China government know they can't set up oil rig in the disputed sea without the objection from other claimant, the oil exploration can be sabotaged by other nation. SCS dispute can only solve through diplomacy negotiation because of military conflict is more costly to conduct incomparison to the total value of the mineral resource in SCS.
 
The days of cheap equipments are over. The newer Chinese models cost just as much as their American counter parts.

I would disagree.

Chinese equipment that are up to Western standards are still cheaper - around a third less.
 
I would disagree.

Chinese equipment that are up to Western standards are still cheaper - around a third less.
That is because we were able to produce things faster, more efficiently, and in bigger quantity thanks to our work ethic and MANPOWER! We are truly a MONSTER! in the making.
 
I would disagree.

Chinese equipment that are up to Western standards are still cheaper - around a third less.

You have to look at what you consider to be up to standard.

J-20, yes. It's not quite F-35, but it's not cheap.

J-10B? Not really the best Fourth Gen out there, not quite super hornet, not same weight group. Still cost some 55 million though.

Type 52C? Not that much relatively, 52D? Pretty expensive even by similar Burke standards.

Carrier? Refurbished cost some 2.5-3 billion I think, the new one will probably be closer to 5-6. American's Ford and nuclear as well as about twice the size is about 15 I think?

The recent post of Humvee and Chinese "humvee" by me, the Chinese version is easily 100,000 US, while the American version is about 40-80 thousand I think. But the Chinese one is bigger and more protected I think.

So yea, it depends on what you deem to be up to Western standards.



China RIGHT NOW is still hopelessly behind American standards, but the basic infrastructure is there, and the testing phase of new equipments is coming to a close here. So be advised over the next decade to see major improvements, and filling massive holes that be unthinkable today.
 
That is because we were able to produce things faster, more efficiently, and in bigger quantity thanks to our work ethic and MANPOWER! We are truly a MONSTER! in the making.

Main reason right now is that Chinese labour is much cheaper compared to the US.

Engineer in US gets paid US$100,000 and maybe US$15-20,000 in China.

China RIGHT NOW is still hopelessly behind American standards, but the basic infrastructure is there, and the testing phase of new equipments is coming to a close here. So be advised over the next decade to see major improvements, and filling massive holes that be unthinkable today.

As an example, the Chinese Navy in 2010 would have been maybe in 6th place behind US, Russia,Japan, UK and France.
By 2020 or so, I expect it to be easily in 2nd place and around as powerful as Russia, Japan and UK combined if the 2 new carriers are ready by then.

Like you say, China has reached a level of economic and technological development in certain areas, more will follow later on in the decade, that it has now started mass production of weapons systems.

By 2030, it would be more or less as powerful as the US.
 
Last edited:
Main reason right now is that Chinese labour is much cheaper compared to the US.

Engineer in US gets paid US$100,000 and maybe US$15-20,000 in China.



As an example, the Chinese Navy in 2010 would have been maybe in 6th place behind US, Russia,Japan, UK and France.
By 2020 or so, I expect it to be easily in 3rd place and around as powerful as Russia, Japan and UK combined if the 2 new carriers are ready by then.

Like you say, China has reached a level of economic and technological development in certain areas, more will follow later on in the decade, that it has now started mass production of weapons systems.

By 2030, it would be more or less as powerful as the US.

I dont know about the enngineers salary in China. They make more than that unless proven wrong
 
I read that, cool story.

China is upgrading its army in every aspect.

The only reason it looks as if China is not catching up fast is because the last 20 years was used to just build up the infrastructure, much like learning programming, first 2-3 years you can't do much, but come 4th year, you can do a lot.

New infantry assault vehicles, anti air vehicles, tank, fighters, helicopters, planes, 120,000 ton destoryers, nuclear aircraft carriers, advanced missiles, even new gun, new uniform, gear, and much much more.

The days of cheap equipments are over. The newer Chinese models cost just as much as their American counter parts.


China's goal is always partial readiness by 2020, and complete readiness by 2030. By that meaning capable of taking on the US by 2030.

Anti access is over, now it's all out offence. We are entering that stage now. No war is to be fought on Chinese land.
War should only be fought on Chinese land for that massively be occupied southwestward.
 
China incomes are on the rise, but the payscale at some professional jobs in China may surprise the average American. Based on 2011 salaries, some Chinese workers are earning as much as their American counterparts. As U.S. wages go down, China wages are going up.

Position Annual Salary (US$)


Engineering supervisor 25,000 – 42,000
General manager 130,000 – 330,000
R&D director 100,000 – 167,000
Procurement director 67,000 – 150,000
Quality director 67,000 – 150,000
Chief technology officer 167,000 – 330,000
Marketing director 100,000 – 130,000
PR/communications manager 34,000 – 67,000
Regional sales manager 67,000 – 100,000

Source: Hays 2012 Salary Guide – Asia

Of course, most Chinese do not have professional jobs, and minimum wage and social safety net comparisons to the U.S. are dismal. The federal minimum wage level in the U.S. is $7.25 per hour. A 40 hour work week means $290 a week gross for the lowest full-time workers in America. In Shenzhen and Shanghai, two of the highest earning cities in China, minimum wage is $238 and $230, respectively…per month.

Yet, minimum wage levels are also rising in China. At a minimum, low wage levels are up 18% in industrial cities like Guangzhou but they are up as much as 37% over the last two years in Nanjing.

City 2010 2011 2012 ’12 vs. ’10 % Rise
Beijing $152 $184 $200 31%
Shanghai $177 $203 $230 29
Shenzhen $174 $209 $238 36
Wuhan $142 $174 $174 22
Chengdu $135 $135 $166 23
Guangzhou $174 $206 $206 18
Nanjing $152 $181 $209 37
Chongqing $108 $138 $138 27

Source: China Statistical Bureau

Blue collar wages in major cities are all on the rise. Salaries for skilled management positions are approaching or equal to that of developed country wages for similar positions. This will be exacerbated in the near term by the shrinking size of the working-age population. Population growth rates are expected to turn negative before the end of this decade.


Fears of slowing growth in China have dominated discussions among American business executives in recent months, but new investment from companies indicates a steady level of optimism about growth over the long term, said Julie Walton, director of the U.S. China Business Council in Shanghai. She noted that in April, Ford Motor Co (F) announced that it would invest $490 million in its passenger assembly vehicle plant in Chongqing. McDonald’s (MCD) announced that it was hiring a whopping 70,000 new employees to staff their 250 new restaurants it plans to open in 2012. AndSamsung Electronics said it will invest $7 billion to build a semiconductor chip factory in Xi’an, Shaanxi.


Main reason right now is that Chinese labour is much cheaper compared to the US.

Engineer in US gets paid US$100,000 and maybe US$15-20,000 in China.
Not true. $100,000 is reserve for professional like doctor. Engineer, depending on what kind, earn around 40,000 to 60,000 on average. For China, it is around 20,000-40,000. Half is more accurate.


-----------

For Some Jobs, China Salaries Now On Par With U.S.


China incomes are on the rise, but the payscale at some professional jobs in China may surprise the average American. Based on 2011 salaries, some Chinese workers are earning as much as their American counterparts. As U.S. wages go down, China wages are going up.

Position Annual Salary (US$)


Engineering supervisor 25,000 – 42,000
General manager 130,000 – 330,000
R&D director 100,000 – 167,000
Procurement director 67,000 – 150,000
Quality director 67,000 – 150,000
Chief technology officer 167,000 – 330,000
Marketing director 100,000 – 130,000
PR/communications manager 34,000 – 67,000
Regional sales manager 67,000 – 100,000

Source: Hays 2012 Salary Guide – Asia

Of course, most Chinese do not have professional jobs, and minimum wage and social safety net comparisons to the U.S. are dismal. The federal minimum wage level in the U.S. is $7.25 per hour. A 40 hour work week means $290 a week gross for the lowest full-time workers in America. In Shenzhen and Shanghai, two of the highest earning cities in China, minimum wage is $238 and $230, respectively…per month.

Yet, minimum wage levels are also rising in China. At a minimum, low wage levels are up 18% in industrial cities like Guangzhou but they are up as much as 37% over the last two years in Nanjing.

City 2010 2011 2012 ’12 vs. ’10 % Rise
Beijing $152 $184 $200 31%
Shanghai $177 $203 $230 29
Shenzhen $174 $209 $238 36
Wuhan $142 $174 $174 22
Chengdu $135 $135 $166 23
Guangzhou $174 $206 $206 18
Nanjing $152 $181 $209 37
Chongqing $108 $138 $138 27

Source: China Statistical Bureau

Blue collar wages in major cities are all on the rise. Salaries for skilled management positions are approaching or equal to that of developed country wages for similar positions. This will be exacerbated in the near term by the shrinking size of the working-age population. Population growth rates are expected to turn negative before the end of this decade.


Fears of slowing growth in China have dominated discussions among American business executives in recent months, but new investment from companies indicates a steady level of optimism about growth over the long term, said Julie Walton, director of the U.S. China Business Council in Shanghai. She noted that in April, Ford Motor Co (F) announced that it would invest $490 million in its passenger assembly vehicle plant in Chongqing. McDonald’s (MCD) announced that it was hiring a whopping 70,000 new employees to staff their 250 new restaurants it plans to open in 2012. AndSamsung Electronics said it will invest $7 billion to build a semiconductor chip factory in Xi’an, Shaanxi.
 
You have to look at what you consider to be up to standard.

J-20, yes. It's not quite F-35, but it's not cheap.

J-10B? Not really the best Fourth Gen out there, not quite super hornet, not same weight group. Still cost some 55 million though.

Type 52C? Not that much relatively, 52D? Pretty expensive even by similar Burke standards.

Carrier? Refurbished cost some 2.5-3 billion I think, the new one will probably be closer to 5-6. American's Ford and nuclear as well as about twice the size is about 15 I think?

The recent post of Humvee and Chinese "humvee" by me, the Chinese version is easily 100,000 US, while the American version is about 40-80 thousand I think. But the Chinese one is bigger and more protected I think.

So yea, it depends on what you deem to be up to Western standards.



China RIGHT NOW is still hopelessly behind American standards, but the basic infrastructure is there, and the testing phase of new equipments is coming to a close here. So be advised over the next decade to see major improvements, and filling massive holes that be unthinkable today.


j-10B shouldn't be compared to a F-18, its comparable to a late model f-16 except much cheaper , theres no way a j-10b costs 55 million per unit for the PLAAF, that number is absurd. perhaps it could be 55 mil for an export but a late new build f-16 can costs over 80 million a pop for exports.

a Burke flight III is some 700 million per ship, 052D is a bit cheaper, but performance should be similar as well given the new datalink, new universal VLS, new massive Radar arrays. of course the 052D is smaller and thus has fewer VLS. and do keep in mind that AB destroyers has the benefit of being acquired in large numbers where as the 052D will be produced in smaller numbers.

the liaoning hull was a dirt cheap 30 million(when including towing), even will all the refurbishment, its costs is not nearly 3 billion as you claim, and for the record, you can't use american costs on an estimate for liaoning as it is much smaller, has no catapults, currently doesn't have a full airwing, is not nuclear powered(a major cost for american carriers) and of course chinese labor is cheaper. really i'd be surprised if its more than 1.5 billion. future carrier costs really depend on what china is going to build.

humvee costs really vary. a basic one is about what you said, but an up armored one can cost 160k+ so an up armored chinese humvee being 100k is really not that strange.

as far as comparisons to american equipment goes, there are indeed several areas in which china is behind (though not hopeless as you claim) but others where it is within ballpark or have caught up. for instance a chinese humvee is not "behind" a american humvee at all. a 052D is within ballpark of AB destroyer (though smaller). j-20 is within ballpark of a f-22, though we do know it gave up some stealth for maneuverability as china known it cant yet match the US in engines. areas that china is really behind, includes nuclear submarines, nuclear powered engines, integrated electrical power systems, spy satellite technologies among others.
 
I have a guess that J20 program would be terminated ...
J31 would replace J20 ... as the potential design ...
 
@xunzi : It is good that China is paying engineers good salaries as otherwise they would be tempted to go abroad.

The point I wanted to make is the cost of production is cheaper in China over US.

Not just engineers but also assembly workers, cleaners etc. Also things like cost of factories and energy would also be cheaper.

Once China pretty much becomes comparable in China in nearly all areas, it would still have the cost advantage over the US. So China would be able to outproduce the US with the same budget.
 
Back
Top Bottom