Origins of our Caste System: Hindu Jaat or Arab Kafa'a?

[XTREME]

From the Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH);

An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

 

[Awesome]

Why?

What is so different about us as Pakistanis that while the Arabs & the Hindus are open about it, we somehow "beat around the bush"?

Are we more sensitive than the Arabs & Hindus? Or are we just more in denial than they are?

Well this is a plus point for us, because it means deep down we recognize that classism is not good, criticize it - only don't do anything about it practically. Eventually ideas would translate into implementation.

 

[explorer9]

Tribalism and castism are way different things. Indian cast system Brahmin, Chatriya, Vasiha & shudra are based on economic and social system of societal governance.

 

[Awesome]

Is that why Pakistani Muslim men are not allowed to marry Arab women in those countries? Because we are not Arab?

I think this interesting point about the Arab Caste System is being covered here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...s-our-caste-system-hindu-jaat-arab-kafaa.html


Reality of Muslim Ummah and Western World. Hassan Nisar - YouTube

There is some truth and some rumor in what you say.

Muslims can marry anyone in the UAE at least as long as both are Muslim and legal residents here.

Taking a cue from what was said earlier about classism, Arabs are not inherrently anti-Pakistani. Although like all societies classism exists here too, and you will see a lot of rich Pakistanis mingling with the rich affluent Arab crowds. Social status is very important here. It is more to do with the sort of upbrining we get around here.

For example this thing is ingrained since childhood when supposedly everyone should be equal.

In schools there are birthday parties to be thrown. A parent with lesser means can't put up a bouncy castle and a live Ice Cream station with a magic show to entertain the kids.

Kids of richer parents won't hang out with you.

To make matter worse (or better - depends how you look at it), the school fees vary a lot here. You can get your LKG kid in school for AED 6,000 per semester to AED 60,000 per semester.

In this day and age, when kids go outside just to play with an ipad, how comfortable do you think they would be hanging out with people with lesser means as they grow up?

The issue is not that the government does not allow you to marry an Arab local woman, chances are you will never be able to score one.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

There have been some forced conversions in Abrahamic religions, the question is; so what? You don't like your religion then feel free to convert to another one, nobody cares......

What is the punishment for apostacy in Islam? Especially in KSA today?

Present proof that some Saudis are secretly Jewish, the proof must come from valid sources. Do not use some conspiracy theories' blogs either.......

Try this-- Just ask your Arab friends from Hejaz area this Question: "I heard that there may be some Jews in Makkah who pretend to be Muslim but inside they still follow their Old Religion. Do you think there is any truth in this?"

See what their response it.

Most Muslim families aren't likely to tolerate marrying their daughters to non-Muslims......

Good to know that they are at least tolerant enough to accept their sons marrying non-Muslims.

As far as I know, Christians & Jews are allowed to live in other portions of Arabia outside the Hijaz, & there is no Islamic ruling that denies them their own places of worship.

I have seen beautifully-designed Churches in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco and so on. And I sometimes like the sound of the Church bells, especially the "peals" that you can hear in those countries.

I have never been to KSA. So I will rely on your witness testimony. Inside or outside of the Hejaz, have you seen any Churches anywhere in KSA? Inside or outside of the Hejaz, have you heard any Church bells anywhere in KSA?

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Expel the idolaters (Mushrikeen) from the Arabian peninsula.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) also said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.” [Sahih Muslim]

“These clear and unambiguous texts, and others, illustrate quite plainly the extent to which Islam is concerned about the protection of the nation from disbelieving communities, and from political coexistence with them which may cause the Muslims to take them for friends and protectors, a thing which Allah has forbidden them from doing.” [Al-Wala Wal Bara by Shaykh Muhammad Saeed Al-Qahtani]

Imam Ash-Shafiee (rahimuhullah) said: “They are prohibited (from entering) the Hijaz. That is to say, Makkah, Madinah, Yamaamah and their respective hinterlands. As for those parts of the Hijaz lying outside the two Harams (of Makkah and Madinah), while those of the People of the Book, and others, and prohibited from either settling or taking up residence therein, they may, nevertheless, with the permission of the Imam, enter for the accomplishment of some mission which is in the interests of the Muslims, such as for the delivery of a letter, or the delivery of goods of which the Muslims are in need. They are permitted to do this so long as they surrender a portion of their trade, though they may not remain for more than three days.” [Ahkaam Ahl add-Dhimma by Ibn al-Qayyim Vol.1/184].

According to what you quote from some Hadith website, we have two sources:

1) What the Messenger of Allah said, as recorded in Sahih Muslim.
2) What Imam ash-Shafi said, as recorded by Bin Al-Qayyim.

As a matter of universal tradition, I suspect it is the first one that supercedes the second. Therefore, the Imam of Haram as-Sharif as seen in the video in my previous post is correctly quoting the Sahih Hadith of Imam Muslim as the true guidance: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

What is the punishment for apostacy in Islam? Especially in KSA today?

As far as I know, a person is given 3 days to repent. If he/she does not repent, he/she would get executed. People who reject Islam here aren't likely to declare their new beliefs.

From my own perspective, that is pure BS, & there is no death penalty for apostates. Visit the link below, it provides good information regarding apostasy in Islam.

Apostates: Should they be killed or saved?

Here are some interesting verses from the Torah.

Deuteronomy (Chapter 13, Verses 6-9)

"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known,

some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other,

you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.

But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

Another interesting link below:

Instant Death to Apostates in the Bible's Old and New Testaments.

Try this-- Just ask your Arab friends from Hejaz area this Question: "I heard that there may be some Jews in Makkah who pretend to be Muslim but inside they still follow their Old Religion. Do you think there is any truth in this?"

See what their response it.

I already know that there is no truth to that. You are simply making stuff up, why not present us with evidence?

Most of the Jews left Arabia a long time back, very few of them converted to Islam. Some of the Jews that converted to Islam were companions of the Prophet himself, as in the case of Abdullah ibn Salam.

In 622, Prophet Muhammad left Makkah for Yathrib. When he reached Yathrib and stopped at Quba, a man came rushing into the city, calling out to people and announcing the arrival of Prophet Muhammad. On hearing the news, Abdullah ibn Salam exclaimed the Shahadah (Testimony of faith that there is only one God and Muhammad is His Messenger.) and told his aunt, who was sitting nearby: "Aunt, he is really, by God, the brother of Moses and follows his religion...".[1] Tradition recounts Abdullah's early life in his own words:

Without any delay or hesitation, Abdullah went out to meet the Prophet. He saw crowds of people at his door. I moved about in the crowds until I reached close to him. The first words I heard him say were: 'O people! Spread peace...Share food...Pray during the night while people sleep... and you will enter Paradise in peace...' I looked at him closely. I scrutinized him and was convinced that his face was not that of an imposter. I went closer to him and made the declaration of faith that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God. The Prophet turned to me and asked: 'What is your name?' 'Al-Husayn ibn Salam,' I replied. 'Instead, it is (now) Abdullah ibn Salam,' he said (giving me a new name). 'Yes,' I agreed. 'Abdullah ibn Salam (it shall be). By Him who has sent you with the Truth, I do not wish to have another name after this day.' I returned home and introduced Islam to my wife, my children and the rest of my household.

Most people here have nothing to do with the Jewish lineage, are you sure that you aren't confusing the descendants of Ishmael & Isaac? In any case, I will ask some of my friends about the existence of "secret Jews" here.

Good to know that they are at least tolerant enough to accept their sons marrying non-Muslims.

Do you have a problem with them not allowing their daughters to marry non-Muslims? Cultural traditions come in to play here, most people will not approve of their daughters marrying non-Muslims. Are you a non-Muslim, why do you care so much about who Muslim girls are allowed to marry?

I have seen beautifully-designed Churches in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco and so on. And I sometimes like the sound of the Church bells, especially the "peals" that you can hear in those countries.

I have never been to KSA. So I will rely on your witness testimony. Inside or outside of the Hejaz, have you seen any Churches anywhere in KSA? Inside or outside of the Hejaz, have you heard any Church bells anywhere in KSA?

At the moment, there are no Churches in Saudi Arabia whatsoever, followers of other religions may perform their worship at home.

According to what you quote from some Hadith website, we have two sources:

1) What the Messenger of Allah said, as recorded in Sahih Muslim.
2) What Imam ash-Shafi said, as recorded by Bin Al-Qayyim.

As a matter of universal tradition, I suspect it is the first one that supercedes the second. Therefore, the Imam of Haram as-Sharif as seen in the video in my previous post is correctly quoting the Sahih Hadith of Imam Muslim as the true guidance: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

I don't think you understand this hadith. Imam Ash-Shafiee is explaining the saying of the Prophet. At that time, as far as I know, the term "Arabian peninsula" referred primarily to the regions of Hijaz focusing towards the cities of Makkah & Madinah.

It isn't forbidden for the Jews & Christians to live in the Arabian Peninsula. There are Jews living in Yemen, they have lived there for centuries, & they were not expelled from Arabia on account of their faith.

 

[RazPaK]

I am a Muslim Pakistani Arain.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

....I don't think you understand this hadith. Imam Ash-Shafiee is explaining the saying of the Prophet. At that time, as far as I know, the term "Arabian peninsula" referred primarily to the regions of Hijaz focusing towards the cities of Makkah & Madinah.....

I admit I have no special knowledge of Islam or the Sunnah. I merely pointed to the understanding of the Grand Imam of the Haram as-Sharif in Makkah as evidenced by what is plainly, honestly and clearly says in the video.

If you think the Grand Imam has not understood the hadith, I suggest you seek an appointment with him and educate him about the errors in his understanding. After he realizes his errors, maybe the two of you can switch positions: He can spend his time posting on internet forums and you can take-over as the Grand Imam of Haram as-Sharif in Makkah.

"FOR US LIBERTY HAS LIMITS" IMAM EXPLAINS LIMITS OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN SAUDI ARABIA - YouTube

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I admit I have no special knowledge of Islam or the Sunnah. I merely pointed to the understanding of the Grand Imam of the Haram as-Sharif in Makkah as evidenced by what is plainly, honestly and clearly says in the video.

If you think the Grand Imam has not understood the hadith, I suggest you seek an appointment with him and educate him about the errors in his understanding.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am not an expert on Islam either, neither am I extremely religious. I dislike mullahs & extremely religious people. Didn't the source I provide you make it clear enough that some people like this "Imam" have misunderstood the hadith? It would be a waste of time to try & educate these "mullahs", they are incapable of reasoning & logical thinking. I suggest that you avoid learning about religion from Youtube videos, & read the scripture yourself.

After he realizes his errors, maybe the two of you can switch positions: He can spend his time posting on internet forums and you can take-over as the Grand Imam of Haram as-Sharif in Makkah.

No thanks! I have no interest in growing a beard, wearing a thawb, & giving out fatwas.

The only reason I studied religion was because I spent a few months of my life as an atheist, & at the time the thought of becoming an atheist freaked me out. So I had to kind off prove to myself that God existed.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

No our caste system comes from our Hindu heritage, chaudharies, rajput, malik etc. India is our neighbour, arabs are a long way away from us.

There is some truth in what you say.

Unfortumately, however, 90% of our religious customs in Pakistan also seem to come from our Hindu heritage, perhaps because, as you say, "India is our neighbour, arabs are a long way away from us".

Musalmanow Mai HIndu wana Rasmai By Shk Tauseef Ur Rehman Part-1 ( HD-720P ) - YouTube

 

[Riyadh Haque]

............
It would be a waste of time to try & educate these "mullahs",
they are incapable of reasoning & logical thinking.......

This seems a bit arrogant. Aren't we like that ourselves?

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

This seems a bit arrogant. Aren't we like that ourselves?

Didn't you watch the video that you yourself posted? Does that dumb "Imam" look like he is capable of reasoning, logical thinking or rational enquiry?

There is nothing wrong with being religious, most of us here care about our religious values to an extent. However, the majority of people despise those with extremist tendencies.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

I am a Muslim Pakistani Arain.

I heard that you guys did very well under the regime of Zia-ul-Haq, because being an pukka Arain himself he brought in a lot of fellow Arains into key Government positions to distribute State Patronage to other Arains under the Biradari custom.

Of course, I admit that I have no direct knowledge of this. Only what people generally say. So what is your view? Is this true?

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Didn't you watch the video that you yourself posted? Does that dumb "Imam" look like he is capable of reasoning, logical thinking or rational enquiry?

There is nothing wrong with being religious, most of us here care about our religious values to an extent. However, the majority of people despise those with extremist tendencies.

I assure you I have seen the video I posted.

I do not rush to judge the intelligence of people based their "looks".

How about this Shaykh? Does he "look" dumb to you? Do you think he is, in your words, "capable of reasoning, logical thinking or rational enquiry"?

Are Shias disbelievers? Answered by my favourite Sheikh Dr. Muhammad Salah. - YouTube

 

[Airboss786]

Curious do you "Equate ARAIN" with Arab Descent & hence Aryan?!