‘Ops in tribal areas could split Pak army’

[Cheetah786]

Whilst he isn't quite right perhaps, i'm curious which Muslim country is a stronger ally of Pakistan than China? I would say none. The US has always been a strong trading partner of Pakistan, and has sanctioned it, it's not a reliable ally. Pakistan could save a lot of money if it were given cheaper fuel by other Muslim countries and so on, this would hardly be a strain on their economies. So before talking about the enemies of Islam, look at the greatest threats to Pakistan today - the radicals of Lal Masjid, the Northern Alliance wishing to split it up, the opposition parties etc..the US is a threat but the biggest threat to Pakistan has to lie within the ranks of the radicals. Even Pakistan's history is tainted with Muslim enemies, it's a bit of a joke to say that the enemies of Islam are Pakistan's enemies. The enemies of Islam are less of a threat to Pakistan than the Islamists themselves. As long as it continues, why should Pakistan ally with who is Islamic when they are creating the biggest threat to it?

All iam asking him is to list the trade between ummah nations and pakistan.

list the investments made by ummah nations in pakistan

list the political or military help provided to pakistan from ummah nations against India.
i will be more then happy to list investments made in india compare to pakistan by ummah nations
i will be more then happy to lists the vote against pakistan in UN against pakistan in Indias favour.
no one here can deny that usa has helped pakistan with military hardware.
ummah nation qatar was willing to sell to indians over pakistan.
ummah nation libya sent a jumbo full of paper work and nuclear hardware to usa against pakistan.
these are just the fews ones i can list so far.

saudi money is being provided only to mullahs who are willing to teach wahabisum in pakistan.
i dont remmeber 1 christian perist comming to pakistan to do the same with American money.
BLA leaders were hidding in UAE and supporting BLA fighters in pakistan against government of pakistan.
with friends like these who needs enemies.

oh before i forget pakistans trade is growing bigger with india then ummah nations.
and that really makes me wonder.

 

[TexasJohn]

The guy is an embarassement!
Somebody please take care of him!

Sir, Hamid Gul is a "Zia Product". As such, he has amassed A few million dollars( US$, of course).

His tentacles of reach run deep as a result. There are many ISI top officials that are beholden to him. Which is why he challenged Mush to expose him, in connection with the AQ Khan case.

But he is a danger to Pakistan as a State - he is all about taking care of himself and his buddies.

Perhaps the "unseen hand" could do the trick?

I would like your thoughts on this. ALL my Pakistani friends are the moderate variety!!

Who will bell the cat?

 

[roadrunner]

saudi money is being provided only to mullahs who are willing to teach wahabisum in pakistan.

This is also my problem with the Saudi money. Though they did help during the default period, is this deal really worth it? Wahhabism is clearly at odds with Pakistani society, it was seen during the Lal Masjid affair. There's always a price it seems, and if the price of Saudi oil is radicalization it's not worth it.

UAE have made a huge investment in Pakistan though. But then again Pakistanis form a large percentage of that population so it perhaps isnt so surprising. Other than that there's not very much in the way of trade with other Muslim countries.

 

[Chrome9]

list the political or military help provided to pakistan from ummah nations against India

Political help? what about the unanimous decision by the OIC to condem Indian actions in Kashmir which lead to the statement that the OIC had no "locus standi" on the matter thus they also took back the proposed observer status.
The subsidised oil? The loans which did not have stringent strings attached like those from the IMF? Or sending in Fighter Jets in the time of War .. you do remeber certain F-5's and F-86 right?

list the investments made by ummah nations in pakistan

You will see that in the privitzastion Arab countries have taken a keen interest. Nonetheless apart from China there isn't another country that has visbly been active in this sector. Anyway we shall see how the KArachi water front develops into..

i will be more then happy to lists the vote against pakistan in UN against pakistan in Indias favour

please do..

no one here can deny that usa has helped pakistan with military hardware.

Yes they can, The USA has been the most trecherous ally of Pakistan, no one can deny that they heavily sanctioned Pakistan, No one can deny they favour a dictator/authoritarian rule in Pakistan even though they throw the word Democracy all day long as if it's the saviour of the world. No one can deny they are splittin Pakistani society more than SAudi Arabia or Iran could ever think to do. No one can deny that they have striked well into Pakistan territory whilst adn killed innocent civilians. That my friend is alot worse than waht the ummah can do.

ummah nation qatar was willing to sell to indians over pakistan.
ummah nation libya sent a jumbo full of paper work and nuclear hardware to usa against pakistan.

Mate take this stuff in context here, Sell over Pakistan? those Mirages are still there and Pakistan doesn't want them because of various diff such as price/logistics/training costs and other platforms ready. I don't think AQ Khan was selling for UMMAH but for his own personal gain, even the state of Pakistan has found him guilty of this charge,,exporting Nukes.. and gave him a relaxed sentence of house arrest because of his status.

saudi money is being provided only to mullahs who are willing to teach wahabisum in pakistan.
i dont remmeber 1 christian perist comming to pakistan to do the same with American money.

]
You have short memory my friend? America funded and weaponised the Mujahideen. To this day they are destabalising Pakistan. Look at the distrust of Musharraf's foreign policy you will understand what the comman man wants.

Whilst he isn't quite right perhaps, i'm curious which Muslim country is a stronger ally of Pakistan than China? I would say none. The US has always been a strong trading partner of Pakistan, and has sanctioned it, it's not a reliable ally. Pakistan could save a lot of money if it were given cheaper fuel by other Muslim countries and so on, this would hardly be a strain on their economies. So before talking about the enemies of Islam, look at the greatest threats to Pakistan today - the radicals of Lal Masjid, the Northern Alliance wishing to split it up, the opposition parties etc..the US is a threat but the biggest threat to Pakistan has to lie within the ranks of the radicals. Even Pakistan's history is tainted with Muslim enemies, it's a bit of a joke to say that the enemies of Islam are Pakistan's enemies. The enemies of Islam are less of a threat to Pakistan than the Islamists themselves. As long as it continues, why should Pakistan ally with who is Islamic when they are creating the biggest threat to it?

Brother, I totally agree with you when you say the biggest threat to today's Pakistan is within it's ranks. The thing is I can't stand Pakistan alway's being dictated by foreign powers like America. The threat of Radical Islam is real but, there are ways of dealing with it other than how America proposes.
I'd love a Prosperous Pakistan like the next guy, but the day Pakistan realises that foreign powers using it as Pawn and not as an ally the day Pakistan will be incharge of it's own destony. Throwing out the idea of ummah and abandoning them is definately not the right idea.

 

[roadrunner]

Brother, I totally agree with you when you say the biggest threat to today's Pakistan is within it's ranks. The thing is I can't stand Pakistan alway's being dictated by foreign powers like America. The threat of Radical Islam is real but, there are ways of dealing with it other than how America proposes.
I'd love a Prosperous Pakistan like the next guy, but the day Pakistan realises that foreign powers using it as Pawn and not as an ally the day Pakistan will be incharge of it's own destony. Throwing out the idea of ummah and abandoning them is definately not the right idea.

Oh Mush knows full well America is dictating to him. but he doesnt have much choice unless he wants to be flattened. One day no country will be able to threaten Pakistan. Which would be pretty good for less than a hundred years after a relatively small and uneducated country was under colonial rule.

 

[blitz]

Drop your enmity with India, make LOC the permanent border, and more than half of Pakistan's problems are solved right there and then. No more need to spend billion of $ on the military, enormous trade across the border, consolidation of the region into one giant economic bloc immune to any foreign dictation, free flow of bollywood movies for all Pakistanis to enjoy etc etc
Just imagine the possibilities, South Asia could become a real powerhouse, but noooooooo, Pakistan would rather sacrifice its future for Kashmir before common sense sinks in.

 

[roadrunner]

Drop your enmity with India, make LOC the permanent border, and more than half of Pakistan's problems are solved right there and then. No more need to spend billion of $ on the military, enormous trade across the border, consolidation of the region into one giant economic bloc immune to any foreign dictation, free flow of bollywood movies for all Pakistanis to enjoy etc etc
Just imagine the possibilities, South Asia could become a real powerhouse, but noooooooo, Pakistan would rather sacrifice its future for Kashmir before common sense sinks in.

Dude, you're the ones that invaded Kashmir, and refused to hold plebiscite there to let the people decide who they want to join, India or Pakistan. Even the UN resolutions asked you to hold plebiscite which you never did. The right thing is to let the people of Kashmir decide what they want to do - something India denies them still. Agreeing to fragment Kashmir would be a mistake for Pakistan, since the people don't want it. The world's greatest democracy and next superpower doesnt seem to care about the wishes of the Kashmiri untermenschen though

And personally I feel Bollywood is a load of junk. If I were Musharraf I'd hang any shopkeeper in Pakistan caught selling a single DVD or video of it. It is better that Pakistan wipes out all these influences so it can develop it rightful culture distinct from that of Bharat.

 

[blitz]

Ok, i say India did invade Kashmir. So what ? There is no hope of recovering it now or in the future. India will not give an inch now, you of all people should know that. So whats the point ? For the sake of Kashmiri's, why is Pakistan holding itself hostage ? I am talking realpolitik, not moral grandstanding. Like the proverb goes, "those who do not change with time, go extinct".

 

[roadrunner]

Ok, i say India did invade Kashmir. So what ? There is no hope of recovering it now or in the future. India will not give an inch now, you of all people should know that. So whats the point ? For the sake of Kashmiri's, why is Pakistan holding itself hostage ? I am talking realpolitik, not moral grandstanding. Like the proverb goes, "those who do not change with time, go extinct".

Kashmiri people are the same ethnic as Pakistani people. That is why Pakistan wishes them the best and wishes their self determination. Bharat does not care about them because the Kashmiris are untermenschen aka not the common Dravidian. Whilst Bharat will stab them in the back and not care for them, Pakistan will not and continues to ask for their self determination right.

 

[blitz]

Roadrunner, do a cost v benefit analysis. Getting Kashmir v normalizing relations with India. But why would you care ? you are sitting in a foreign country making tall claims about liberation of Kashmir and ethnicities. Its not you who is fed into the meat grinder called the Kashmir insurgency, its not you has to face the crushing poverty caused directly as a result of Pakistan's enmity with India.

Id rather hear the opinions of Pakistanis who are residing in Pakistan or have a direct stake in Pakistan's domestic conditions, like Sir Niaz or sir Muradk. I don't hold your opinion in any regard.

 

[blain2]

Roadrunner, do a cost v benefit analysis. Getting Kashmir v normalizing relations with India. But why would you care ? you are sitting in a foreign country making tall claims about liberation of Kashmir and ethnicities. Its not you who is fed into the meat grinder called the Kashmir insurgency, its not you has to face the crushing poverty caused directly as a result of Pakistan's enmity with India.

While not totally in disagreement, I do have to ask you why you make the comment "its not you has to face the crushing poverty caused directly as a result of Pakistan's campaign for Kashmir."

Can you prove that there is bone-crushing poverty and its due to Pakistan's campaign for Kashmir? Compared to the magnitude of Indian poverty, Pakistan is suffering nothing (I am not saying this literally). Not sure if Pakistan's poverty has ANYTHING to do with Kashmir.

 

[blitz]

Of course Blain, India also has crushing poverty on a massive scale. Much more so than Pakistan. India is trying to solve that problem and get rid of all border disputes. That is why India has all but given up its claim on Askai Chin as well. That is why India also does not claim Azad Kashmir anymore. India's general stand is make LOC the permanent border. Its Pakistan thats dragging the Kashmir issue.

 

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner, do a cost v benefit analysis. Getting Kashmir v normalizing relations with India. But why would you care ? you are sitting in a foreign country making tall claims about liberation of Kashmir and ethnicities. Its not you who is fed into the meat grinder called the Kashmir insurgency, its not you has to face the crushing poverty caused directly as a result of Pakistan's enmity with India.

Id rather hear the opinions of Pakistanis who are residing in Pakistan or have a direct stake in Pakistan's domestic conditions, like Sir Niaz or sir Muradk. I don't hold your opinion in any regard.

Dude, the feeling is mutual, I don't hold your opinion in much regard either. I have no love for the Kashmiris personally, a lot of them are too blinded to even see how much Pakistan has helped them. Most want independence which Pakistan has given them from its part. Kashmir is a colonial legacy, an artifical border. It belongs historically to Pakistan or the Indus Valley and always has done. The right is with Pakistan on this, and so I support Kashmir going to Pakistan, or at least the Kashmir Valley, Jammu I would support going to India. You should do a cost vs benefit of how much the war is costing you and the millions of Bharatis it could feed, versus the tiny piece of worthless land the Kashmir Valley is - that is all Pakistan wants. The other parts, Jammu should go to Bharat, Ladakh to China, sounds good too.

 

[blitz]

Blain, for your question about how Pakistan's poverty is linked to enmity with India.... Look at the world map. Pakistan has a strategic position geographically. It sits at the mouth of land locked Central Asia and all its energy resources. Pakistan sits at the border of the Persian gulf and a huge energy exporter Iran. Now look on the two sides of Pakistan. On one side is impoverished and unstable Afghanistan. The other side is the enormous market of India with an unlimited appetite for energy. If Pakistan and India could get over the confrontation, Pakistan would become the transit hub for all energy exports feeding not only India, but also the rest of the global economy. Exports to CAR and Iran from India will transit through Pakistan. Then there is the thriving business enviornment within India. Indian companies are investing billions over billions into places as far as Africa, with only unpredictable chances of return at best. If Pakistan would open its doors, it would be flush with foreign investment. Then there is the massive border, which is virtually sealed off. Open that border to trade and the flow of goods and money will be enormous. Pakistan will have an unlimited market for its exports.

Combine that with the additional 160 million market of Pakistan, India's strategic location on top of the world's most critical SLOC, India's seat in the security council [provided Pakistan supports our nomination], India and Pakistan's strategic nuclear arsenal, India's access to all the developed world's technology, etc etc and there will be no nation on earth that could dictate any terms to SAARC.

An economic bloc spanning from the shores of the Persian gulf to the straits of Malacca. The possibilities are endless. This self inflicted isolation has hurt Pakistan just as much as India, if not more.

 

[Neo]

Well said Blitz!