Opinionated - China Chipping Away to Semiconductor Dominance

[Paul2]

Is Huawei building its lithography machines?
2020-07-26
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ChinaTech

Huawei is hiring many lithography engineers recently. Does Huawei want to develop its own lithography machine in China?

Recently, the news about Huawei's development of a lithography machine has been posted on Weibo and WeChat Moments. The source of the news is that Huawei is recruiting lithography machine technicians on a large scale, requiring full-time work in Songshan Lake, Dongguan.

According to reports, many domestic manufacturers have received inquiries for ancillary products from Huawei.

There are even claims that a large number of core personnel within Huawei have been transferred to the lithography machine department. In Huawei’s newly established lithography machine department, people work 24 hours a day, eat and live in the company. It is also expected to mention that its 5NM lithography machine will be put into mass production within two years.
In addition, another source said that Huawei had applied for a patent on lithography equipment as early as 4 years ago.

According to the Chinese patent publication website epub.sipo.gov.cn, the patent was applied for at the Chinese Patent Office on September 9, 2016. The applicant is Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. and the inventor is Florian Longnos. He used to work for Huawei and now works as a senior engineer at Groupe SII in France.

Huawei lithography machine patent (in Chinese)

In other words, Huawei began research and development of the lithography machine industry as early as 4 years ago.

Huawei stated in the patent document that the implementation of the present invention provides a lithography equipment and a lithography system, which can avoid translation of the substrate by using an optical switch and at least two photonic devices to form an interference pattern on the surface of the substrate. This improves the efficiency of photolithography processing and the accuracy of interference patterns.


Why Huawei will build its own lithography machine?

In this regard, the China Semiconductor Forum (211ic.com) issued a statement that it is logical for Huawei to enter the lithography machine under the current situation. Huawei HiSilicon currently has no design capabilities, but cannot produce chips.

Before Huawei's president Ren Zhengfei had a chip plan to prevent it from being restricted, and now the chip foundry production has become a weakness that Huawei has been criticized by the United States. Huawei therefore needs to lay out a complete industrial chain like Samsung.
However, the article believes that, in theory, it is basically impossible for Huawei to produce a 5NM lithography machine within two years.
First, the lithography machine is not something that anyone can do. Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment, jointly led by the Shanghai Municipal Government and state-level departments, achieved 96nm after more than ten years of hard work.
SMIC has been established for 20 years, but is only now familiar with the 14nm process. But this is already a very difficult achievement. It is now rumored that Huawei wants to build 5NM in two years, which is a bit unlikely.
Second, Huawei recruits a "lithography process engineer", which belongs to a research and development position, that is, Huawei sends engineers to the foundry to supervise and guide the process manufacturing. If Huawei intends to build its own lithography machine, the recruitment position should be "lithography equipment engineer".


Why Huawei can build its own lithography machine?
However, some people believe that if Huawei builds its own chip factory, the probability of success in its lithography machine still exists.

First, Huawei has a lot of cash flow support.
Second, although Huawei could not produce chips or lithography machines before, it has mastered the relevant technical principles and technical reserves.
Third, if Huawei really wants to produce lithography machines, the Chinese government will definitely support it. Therefore, although it seems a bit impossible for 5NM lithography machines to be put into mass production within 2 years, at least the money and talents are in place. With the strong support of the country, it may come true one day in the future.

https://www.chinasdg.org/article/is-huawei-building-its-lithography-machines

The government will give them any amount of money they want I feel

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

China can only manufacture 28nm chips with its own technology at the moment. It's going to be a long road ahead.

14nm. You might object that the Kirins made by SMIC were made on ASML's DUVs, but SMEE's SSB800 is rumoured to be already in SMIC's hands and commercialization should be at most a year away. In any event, SMIC's path to 7nm (and perhaps 5nm) with DUV is fairly clear. The EUV situation is murkier, but CIOMP is expected to be out with a 125W EUV machine in about two years roughly equivalent to ASML's state of the art in 2017.

I think SMIC should be up in the first tier globally by 2025-2030.

 

[S10]

14nm. You might object that the Kirins made by SMIC were made on ASML's DUVs, but SMEE's SSB800 is rumoured to be already in SMIC's hands and commercialization should be at most a year away. In any event, SMIC's path to 7nm (and perhaps 5nm) with DUV is fairly clear. The EUV situation is murkier, but CIOMP is expected to be out with a 125W EUV machine in about two years roughly equivalent to ASML's state of the art in 2017.

I think SMIC should be up in the first tier globally by 2025-2030.

SMIC already said they won't be able to supply Huawei when the ban comes into effect.

https://technode.com/2020/05/22/smic-to-the-rescue-huawei-shouldnt-hold-its-breath-experts/

Why do you think Huawei is hiring its own lithography experts? They do not have a steady supplier who is willing to risk being cut off from DUV and EUV from Western sources.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

SMIC already said they won't be able to supply Huawei when the ban comes into effect.

https://technode.com/2020/05/22/smic-to-the-rescue-huawei-shouldnt-hold-its-breath-experts/

Why do you think Huawei is hiring its own lithography experts? They do not have a steady supplier who is willing to risk being cut off from DUV and EUV from Western sources.

I used "SMIC" as kind of a surrogate for the state of Chinese semiconductor production. SMIC itself already has no access to Western EUV equipment and DUV is irrelevant because it can't move past 7nm (some are saying 5nm is possible) so it can only carry things so far, and China is on the cusp of unveiling its own DUV machine anyway.

If Huawei wants to set up its own fab like Samsung, that's probably the smart play. But what it really should do is back research institutes like CIOMP, The Harbin Institute, et al. so SMEE can build an EUV machine as soon as possible. Huawei's fab will be supplied by SMEE.

 

[ILC]

Idk where did you read that it won't but nothing says in the article that Smic won't be able to supply Huawei when the ban goes into action . (for now 7 nm, and 5nm not possible, soon 7nm )Contrary Smic supply Huawei now with 14 nm process, and if Huawei is going into lithography eq I believe we will see Smee - Huawei collaboration.

 

[Han Patriot]

14nm. You might object that the Kirins made by SMIC were made on ASML's DUVs, but SMEE's SSB800 is rumoured to be already in SMIC's hands and commercialization should be at most a year away. In any event, SMIC's path to 7nm (and perhaps 5nm) with DUV is fairly clear. The EUV situation is murkier, but CIOMP is expected to be out with a 125W EUV machine in about two years roughly equivalent to ASML's state of the art in 2017.

I think SMIC should be up in the first tier globally by 2025-2030.

It's either now or never, US was gonna ban us sooner or later when we got too strong.

 

[Figaro]

14nm. You might object that the Kirins made by SMIC were made on ASML's DUVs, but SMEE's SSB800 is rumoured to be already in SMIC's hands and commercialization should be at most a year away. In any event, SMIC's path to 7nm (and perhaps 5nm) with DUV is fairly clear. The EUV situation is murkier, but CIOMP is expected to be out with a 125W EUV machine in about two years roughly equivalent to ASML's state of the art in 2017.

I think SMIC should be up in the first tier globally by 2025-2030.

Don't you need EUV instead of DUV for 5 nm?

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

Don't you need EUV instead of DUV for 5 nm?

Not necessarily, you can do it with multi patterning and multiple exposure techniques, is going to be more costly and less effective than with EUV. ASML DUV single exposure size is 38nm meanwhile ASML EUV single exposure size is 14nm so is closer to 5nm than DUV. SMEE lithography machine according with sources will be 28nm single exposure putting the machine halfway through an EUV machine.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Not necessarily, you can do it with multi patterning and multiple exposure techniques, is going to be more costly and less effective than with EUV. ASML DUV single exposure size is 38nm meanwhile ASML EUV single exposure size is 14nm so is closer to 5nm than DUV. SMEE lithography machine according with sources will be 28nm single exposure putting the machine halfway through an EUV machine.

Is it physically possible to have DUV 28nm single exposure? Why did ASML stop at 38nm single exposure if it could have continued to make money off established DUV production before switching to EUV?

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

Is it physically possible to have DUV 28nm single exposure? Why did ASML stop at 38nm single exposure if it could have continued to make money off established DUV production before switching to EUV?

I guess is a combination of the tolerances between the multiple components of the machine including the optical system and the light source, my guess is that the Chinese system is between with a bottleneck to EUV somewhere in the system, they have done extensive research in EUV so i guess they have some parts already working.
https://euvlitho.com/2015/P21.pdf
it make little sense for ASML to make an 28-22nm DUV machine when they have the ability of making EUV machine which is a major selling point, the ability to more with less.

 

[TruthHurtz]

Not necessarily, you can do it with multi patterning and multiple exposure techniques, is going to be more costly and less effective than with EUV. ASML DUV single exposure size is 38nm meanwhile ASML EUV single exposure size is 14nm so is closer to 5nm than DUV. SMEE lithography machine according with sources will be 28nm single exposure putting the machine halfway through an EUV machine.

ASML DUV single exposure is actually between 20-38nm, the exact resolution is a trade secret.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

ASML DUV single exposure is actually between 20-38nm, the exact resolution is a trade secret.

Source for this? Everything I've read has the single exposure resolution at 38nm. The same is true for the Nikon DUV, 38nm. The Chinese machine is unusual in supposedly having a single exposure resolution at 28nm.

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

ASML DUV single exposure is actually between 20-38nm, the exact resolution is a trade secret.

They market it as 38nm so my guess is that the number is closer to the figure that they post in their website, if it was lower they would have published a closer number to beat Nikon who also produce 38nm scanners.

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

Source for this? Everything I've read has the single exposure resolution at 38nm. The same is true for the Nikon DUV, 38nm. The Chinese machine is unusual in supposedly having a single exposure resolution at 28nm.

https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=298547
In this site one user published some technical data, the institutes and the companies involved.
There is also patents filled recently that could give a hint.
And they already have experience with 22nm http://www.tbcoer.com/en/new/new-43-290.html so 28nm is not that far fetch if you think about it.
They are trying hard to develop an EUV machine https://euvlitho.com/2015/P21.pdf but they need a lithography machine right now, is a national security issue for them, i think they will take whatever the manage to get so far in euv and combined it in a more or less advanced DUV machine.

 

[letsrock]

Making a lithography machine is one thing. What about quality and yield of chinese machines ? any idea ?