Open discussion about Kemal Atatürk

[Selim I]

Since I believe this is an open discussion forum, where people can share their ideas, and talk about issues related to the respected topics. Where freedom of speech is allowed in a sense where you don't insult/curse other members ideas or family members.
I want to introduce some unknown parts of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, as we all know blindfold following something is not correct, there shouldn't be any problem with critisizing certain historical figures as long as it is documented with reliable sources.

We should be able to learn from our past mistakes, and that's why I believe no one has reasons to feel insulted with the following post.
Further, no one has the right to indoctrinate people in certain ideas if those ideas originate from propoganda. Therefore I am hereby opening a discussion about Atatürk's ideals and ideas.

I want everyone to contribute to this thread, if they respectfully follow the PDF's forum rules.
Therefore I hope that this will be a constructive thread where respect and good manners is valued highly.

I want to start off with a raw footage of Atatürks last speech in the Turkish parlament.

Turkish:
" - Bizim devlet idaresindeki ana programimiz CHP programidir.
- Bunun kapsadigi prensipler, idarede ve siyasette bizi aydinlatici ana hatlardir
- Fakat bu prensipleri, gökten indigi sanilan kitaplarin dogmalariyla asla bir tutmamalidir.
- Biz, ilhamlarimizi gökten ve gaipten degil, dogrudan dogruya hayattan almis bulunuyoruz."

English:
" - Our head state administration program, is a CHP program.
- The principles that contains this, is an enlightment in the administration and politics
- But these principles, must not be held equal with books which some people believe comes from above.
- Our inspiration is not from the sky or divine, but merely from experience."

We also know that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk made speeches in public where he praises Islam, God and Muhammed (peace be upon him).
So I think it is very interesting to witness how this person can have two different opinions on the same subject.

If you can disprove the above stated, then please come with your sources. As we all should be eager to learn and face the reality.

 

[livingdead]

I think we was atheist(or at least agnostic), praising allah/islam/mohammed is just to make himself acceptable.

 

[Rusty]

My personal views is that he hated Islam and did everything he could to destroy it.
But on the other hand, he did save Turkey from destruction.

So while I really hate him for his destruction of Islam.
I respect his military abilities and the defense of Turkey.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

He did indeed help save Turkey from the occupiers during WWI. But after the war of independence he implemented political ideas from Europe, and especially France. What i am highly critical about is that he introduced Secularism (laikcilik) which removed all Islamic rules and regulations, even though the whole Empire was based on that. He may be a war hero, but in my and many others eyes he banished islamic rules/values, which is not acceptable.

Edit: and it is not any secret that he was a freemason and shared their values.
http://abbey.lodge.ws/test/AboutFreemasonry/100FamousMasonsFromAroundTheWorld/tabid/280/Default.aspx
http://www.palestinelodge189.com/20...turkey-ataturk-turkeys-george-washington.html

These pages are from the Freemasons' official web pages, that has nothing to do with anti-kemalism or similar.

 

[JonAsad]

Great Leader-

Very Bad Muslim- if he ever was one-

tbh- now i think his efforts are going down the drain again-

 

[what]

Since most forumers here are very religious many people will criticize him for what he said. But think about it, just for a second. Where is Turkey heading and where are religious countries heading?

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with what he said. Religious countries fail, they achieve nothing, instead of Sharia or other religious doctrines he brought us democracy, women rights and peace. No one is getting stoned in Turkey or lashed for wearing jeans. We're a civilized country because of what Atatürk did and removing the religious ranks was necessary and good.

 

[RedBeard]

AtaTurk never claimed to be religious!

He was just a true military genious! And the best ever States men Turkiye ever had! To lead a country you need to have a strong patriotic leader who knows whats best for the nation and the country, not clerics! With all due respect, no offence to my fellow muslim brothers but If anyone of us seeks spiritual guidance you can go to yourlocal imam however when countries defence comes into question, you need true leaders like Mustafa Kemal to lead the nation to victory!

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Since most forumers here are very religious many people will criticize him for what he said. But think about it, just for a second. Where is Turkey heading and where are religious countries heading?

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with what he said. Religious countries fail, they achieve nothing, instead of Sharia or other religious doctrines he brought us democracy, women rights and peace. No one is getting stoned in Turkey or lashed for wearing jeans. We're a civilized country because of what Atatürk did and removing the religious ranks was necessary and good.

True brother. But Turkey's economy is just starting to stabilize and grow normally starting in 2000's. Turkey never experienced true wealth and stability in its enitirety until the last couple of years. Hence, i don't think it is fair to say that Mustafa Kemal was responsible for the positive developments alone.

Ataturk may have the rights to absolve the Ottoman Dynasty since it was heading into chaos, fair. But in my honest opinion he had no rights to absolve the laws and systems of Allah SWT. There is no such thing as "Islam and so-called modern society can't coexists", true Islam can and have always led to progression. The Ottoman Empire's life is a perfect example. The Ottoman led the technologial, political, societal and many other spheres in the world. The problem arose in the 18th and 19th century when we started being lazy, and the Europeans started getting innovative. So there is absolutely no scientific truth in saying that Islam as a system fails. The moment we say that, is the very same moment we give up and pity ourselves. We should be proud of our great Ottoman ancestry. And try to revive that spirit, instead of trying to copycat the Europeans.

EDIT
To RedBeard: i wont read or respond to a person who curses and threatens me and my family. Until you apologize.

 

[RedBeard]

Can anyone tell me which country today can we call true Islamic state and succesfull at he same time, to be example to the other muslim countries, a model who we can follow?

There simply is not such a country! Wake up brothers, countries who call themselves Islamic State or other arab countries who claimto be leader of the ummah are in fact just unimportant little puppets of the west!!

Atleast ATATURK was anti emperialist, he came up with excellent projects to save the nation from becomming slaves to others! Un
Ike fake islamic states of today, atleast the Turks have not became murdered and opressed by own State! Thanks to ATATURK we today are being ruled by an elected goverment, the peoples goverment! Not some corrupt dictator or puppet king!

 

[p4kistan]

With everyone discussing Ataturks Islamic values etc, i only have one point:

As far as i understand he was born a muslim, he died as a muslim. Let Allah (SWT) judge him on the day of judgement.

Coming to his policies i will just copy and paste what i stated in another thread:

MK Ataturk had both good and negative attributes. He is the founding father of the Turkish Republic so it is understandable that a huge percentage of turks are outright hostile to any negativity regarding him and his policies. I would equate him to our quaid e azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founding father of our nation, if anyone was to attack his character i would also be on the defensive as RedBeard. In fact Jinnah held Ataturk in high regard and hoped to build pakistan on some of his ideals, believe it or not Ataturks policies (which i don't agree with sometimes i.e. secularism/liberalism to the degree where women dress inappropriately etc) have allowed Turkey to be the great nation it is today. A beacon for Muslims to aspire to with its development.

Ataturk may be seen in a negative light for issues such as abolishing the caliphate, limiting religious (islamic) expression. If the caliphate was not abolished would Turkey be as it is today, i don't think so. It would be less developed by not having western support/influence, ataturks policies allowed development whether we like it or not. perhaps this was and is Allah (swt) plan to bring about a stronger ottoman nation that will be able to help the rest of the muslim nations out of our dark ages and into an islamic renaissance.

As i stated i didn't agree with abolishing the caliphate but i would put greater blame on arabs and their nationalism that ultimately led to collapse of an entity that could proudly call itself the ummah. Please note i still believe in our ummah today eventhough muslim brothers are killing each other for worldly things and at the behest of those against islam.

This reminds me that everyone should realise that allah is the greatest of all planners, perhaps attaturk was part of these plans. Just read the following link and you will understand what i mean:

Inspiring Story : Allah is the Best of Planners! « ISLAM—World's Greatest Religion!

Brothers do not insult and attack each other in this thread all opinions are valid, no offence was intended on my part so if any kemalists think i have offended them or anyone else in this matter i apologise.

 

[Rusty]

Since most forumers here are very religious many people will criticize him for what he said. But think about it, just for a second. Where is Turkey heading and where are religious countries heading?

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with what he said. Religious countries fail, they achieve nothing, instead of Sharia or other religious doctrines he brought us democracy, women rights and peace. No one is getting stoned in Turkey or lashed for wearing jeans. We're a civilized country because of what Atatürk did and removing the religious ranks was necessary and good.

Look at who is leading Turkey at its rise, A practicing Muslim.
Being Muslim and being successful are not mutually exclusive.
As much as the west likes to parrot this idea that Muslims are somehow backwards, it is simply not true.
If you look the root problems for the poverty and lack of progress in just about all the Muslims countries, you will notice an underlying theme.
The theme being that the countries are coming out brutal and inhumane slavery to the west.
When the Europeans colonized us they stunted our growth and destroyed out leadership. only now, a full generation later are we starting to see a few leaders emerge, and this process is only beginning so it will still take time.

In reality it is the Europeans who have prevented us from progressing, not Islam.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Look at who is leading Turkey at its rise, A practicing Muslim.
Being Muslim and being successful are not mutually exclusive.
As much as the west likes to parrot this idea that Muslims are somehow backwards, it is simply not true.
If you look the root problems for the poverty and lack of progress in just about all the Muslims countries, you will notice an underlying theme.
The theme being that the countries are coming out brutal and inhumane slavery to the west.
When the Europeans colonized us they stunted our growth and destroyed out leadership. only now, a full generation later are we starting to see a few leaders emerge, and this process is only beginning so it will still take time.

In reality it is the Europeans who have prevented us from progressing, not Islam.

So true and so beautifully written. If we have to draw examples from Turkey, everyone living in Turkey and visiting Turkey every year or more often can see the extreme change the country is in at the moment. The former goverments were always corrupt, backwards and ultra-secular. But what happened when AKP came to power? In just ten years he tranformed Turkey from a fragile poor country with absolute negative image in the world, to a succefull, wealthy powerful regional power. No one in their right minds can deny these developments.

 

[what]

True brother. But Turkey's economy is just starting to stabilize and grow normally starting in 2000's. Turkey never experienced true wealth and stability in its enitirety until the last couple of years. Hence, i don't think it is fair to say that Mustafa Kemal was responsible for the positive developments alone.

Ataturk may have the rights to absolve the Ottoman Dynasty since it was heading into chaos, fair. But in my honest opinion he had no rights to absolve the laws and systems of Allah SWT. There is no such thing as "Islam and so-called modern society can't coexists", true Islam can and have always led to progression. The Ottoman Empire's life is a perfect example. The Ottoman led the technologial, political, societal and many other spheres in the world. The problem arose in the 18th and 19th century when we started being lazy, and the Europeans started getting innovative. So there is absolutely no scientific truth in saying that Islam as a system fails. The moment we say that, is the very same moment we give up and pity ourselves. We should be proud of our great Ottoman ancestry. And try to revive that spirit, instead of trying to copycat the Europeans.

EDIT
To RedBeard: i wont read or respond to a person who curses and threatens me and my family. Until you apologize.

Just like to say that Atatürk prepared and layed the foundation to what is today a very successful country, we're still not as mature as a country as I would like it to be but still have the whole Middle East looking up on us and thats a fact.

Zulkarneyn, I'm not only talking about progress in science or economy but also in human rights and with all due respect we never have been so democratic and respected human rights as we do nowadays (we're still not even near to countries as Denmark or other Scandinavian countries), even if some people keep on jailing journalists.

In a Islamic country there would be stoning and lashing. I dont want my country to be like that. If a women wants to be a *****, let her be. Its upon her. She wants to convert to Judaism/Christainism? I dont care. So my wife wants to wear mini-skirts and high-heels? My problem.

People should be allowed to do what ever they want, as long as they don't bother other people with it.

 

[Rusty]

Just like to say that Atatürk prepared and layed the foundation to what is today a very successful country, we're still not as mature as a country as I would like it to be but still have the whole Middle East looking up on us and thats a fact.

Zulkarneyn, I'm not only talking about progress in science or economy but also in human rights and with all due respect we never have been so democratic and respected human rights as we do nowadays (we're still not even near to countries as Denmark or other Scandinavian countries), even if some people keep on jailing journalists.

In a Islamic country there would be stoning and lashing. I dont want my country to be like that. If a women wants to be a *****, let her be. Its upon her. She wants to convert to Judaism/Christainism? I dont care. So my wife wants to wear mini-skirts and high-heels? My problem.

People should be allowed to do what ever they want, as long as they don't bother other people with it.

Your Idea of Islam is tainted by the extreme hatred of it by the European countries, that I think you live in.

In a true Islamic society you are free to do and believe as you wish. The only condition is that you do it in your own home.
You can drink yourself silly or sodomize your dog all you want, just don't do it in public.

If you look at it, that's not very different from "progressive" European ideals.

 

[silko]

i respect him as a military leader. indeed he saved us from being a colony...

however, i don't agree with every political view he had, that's my stance!