Once home of the Calipha - Istanbul

[TNT]

At a theoretical level no as Islam is supposed to be a universal religion and for all times. But nothing in life exists in a vacuam. Depending on how Islam is interpreted it often can equal to Arab culture. For instance the whole thing about dates and even basing events on moon sighting is very Arab influenced as are many other precepts. For instance if you happen to have lived in Norway the chance of opening your fast with dates or seeing the moon are limited for obvious reasons.

The Islam that evolved in Balkans and Anatolia or what are today Bosnia and Turkey are not same as what you see in Tataristan or in Oman or Somalia or even in Egypt. For instance in Egypt they practice female mutilation. Those are cultural aspects that have seeped in. For those of you who have read Allama Iqbals "Recomstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" he states clearly Islam needs to be cleaned of Arabic cultutal practices.

Cultural practices have nothing to do with Islam and those that have read Quran and understood it knows this well. What does dates have to do with Islam?? Ofcourse its an abudant fruit in arabia but Quran mentions many more and says that Allah have made all these for u. There is nothing in Islam that orders u to eat dates, i dont like dates and never eat it in ramadan or otherwise, doeant make me a kafir. Similarly linar calendar is not just Islamkc and have been used by many cultures before Islam, its just a calendar. Practices like genital mutilation of females is totally against Islam, just coz Egyptians do it, doesnt make it Islamic. Even the pashtun culture of burqa covering whole face is not prescribed in Islam. Similarly women are allowed to go to mosques in Islam but its not allowed in Pakistan. These practices have nothing to do with Islam, same as extremism and barbarianism like ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. U would know that if u studied Islam. Islam is also totally against nationalism based on race or country but today's muslims like turks, arabs and even Pakistanis are nationalists. Even some scholars have equated nationalism to almost kufr.

 

[Lincoln]

Yup, Turkey is quite exception in Muslim world due to the influence of de-Islamization during Ataturk period. And this is why I dont understand of why AKP can still win there, basically the society is much liberal than other Muslim countries (except ex USSR region in Central Asia which also experience de-Islamization during Communist rule)

That's because AKP still isn't as conservative as people outside think, they're still principally secular. On top of that, they ushered in an era of major militiary and economic development (GDP increased by 3x over their governments, the econojy really did do well under them), but that trend has hit plateau and shown some dips, and there are other issues now regarding politics and economy. So there popularity has significantly decreased to the point that their prospects in the upcoming election seem shaky.

Also, I don't really like this thread. The point of secularism isn't to promote a certain lifestyle but to let people live how they want. If you want to be religious, you can be. If you don't want to be religious, that's fine too. That's the whole point.

As far as Pakistanis are concerned, there is concern because some of the religious serials are not being taken as the drama they are, but being taken serious. Some Pakistanis have a false image of Turkey today, and those who do know the facts are critical of its secular system and its founding history. This can create obstacles between the foreign relations between the two nations in the future as people learn more about each other.

I mean, how many of you would want the government to establish good diplomatic relations with a country whose people abuse Pakistan's founding fathers. That's kind of the point.

 

[TNT]

but pakistanis have so much arab influence why is that? I dont know is it from the start or later down the line. Is it because arabs are now stronger than Pakistanis? financially.

I dont think that is true. Just because Pakistanis are religious doesnt mean they r influenced by arabs. Infact ull even witness here on pdf how most Pakistanis dont like arabs. Most Pakistanis are also barelwi sect, that staunchly opposes salafi or wahabi which are majority arabs.
If anything i think Pakistanis are very similar to malaysians and indonesians in religious views and practices. We would have been very similar to central asian muslims (hanafi) but they got deislamized by communists.

 

[Lincoln]

I dont think that is true. Just because Pakistanis are religious doesnt mean they r influenced by arabs. Infact ull even witness here on pdf how most Pakistanis dont like arabs. Most Pakistanis are also barelwi sect, that staunchly opposes salafi or wahabi which are majority arabs.
If anything i think Pakistanis are very similar to malaysians and indonesians in religious views and practices. We would have been very similar to central asian muslims (hanafi) but they got deislamized by communists.

Yeah, we've our own thing going but it's not pretty. Even the arabs seem more tolerant than us nowadays

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

yes i saw that. I thought there is some new video

from reddit

I used to really like Pakistanis, don't get me wrong I still very much do but the way some Pakistanis are acting like they know what's up in Turkey, telling us what's best for us without even knowing the internal dynamics of our country is quite ridiculous. They should just stop that. And despite what some idiots here claim, most Turks whether secular or conservative are grateful that Indian Muslims (at that time) helped out the Turks in many different ways, sending medics, money, weapons, and sometimes soldiers. We don't forget that but watching a few Turkish shows does not make you an expert on Turkish history in which some Pakistani friends have the audacity to lecture us about our own country. That's simply obnoxious and really rude.


People in Pakistan think that they are historians on Turkey simply because they watched Ertugrul or any other sycophantic Turkish soap opera.



I think the majority of Pakistani people would hate Turkey if they saw how seculiar we are compared to the middle east. The Turkey that they imagine and the reality are completely different.
Personally, their love for Turkey and Turkish culture doesn’t bother me, I just don’t think they really understand what they are supporting.

Your classic example of this retardness. I have a particular political and social view point on Islam, mullahs and it's destructive effect on Pakistan since 1947. Now you can debate or discuss and deconstruct my view point which I have every right to hold. I am open to it being questioned or debated where I will of course defend my thinking.

Of course on PDF there are too many retards to understand the concept of debate and people holding alternate views to your own. And you sadly are no differant. Instead of tryimng to de-construct or rebut me you begin hurling personal insults which only proves you are a narrow minded retard exactly like Saad Rizvi and others.

You lot complain about Hindus lynching Muslims. Well how is this fcukin differant? Anybody does not share your idea of religion is target to get PDF lynched.

 

[T-SaGe]

First of all, Turkey is a secular state and it cannot change. It keeps 'everyone' in the country together and guarantees freedom of conscience. The existence of the state is the most important phenomenon in Turkish culture. Historically proven that when we cannot keep our state alive, we cannot keep our religion alive too. We did not turn into something new, we reinterpreted our old identity in today's world and conditions.

Of course, the perception of Islamic community/jamaat movements in certain periods of Turkey as a threat to the survival of the state and the erosion caused by the taking of harsh measures about them are also effective for some stereotypes about Turkey. But, Do you know that how many British-backed and claimed caliphate-type revolts happened between 1920-1935? Or you know that the FETO organization's religious state dream, which was trying to overthrow the existing republic in 2016? When you study a phenomenon, you cannot isolate it from the circumstances surrounding it.

In my opinion, the subject you consider wrong is not the conservatives in our country; but the nature of secularism in Turkey. The foundations of Atatürk's revolutions go back to the historical background of the Turkish nation and he has made this clear with historical facts. Unfortunately, because the phenomenon of the separation of religion and state affairs in Turkey is explained with western terminology, confusion arises.

The origin of secularism in Turkey does not extend to Europe, but to the pre-Ottoman period. Even the Ottoman Empire has not been a hardline Muslim state to the extent that you have claimed throughout its history. If you are interested in this subject, we can discuss it start from the Seljuk-Tugrul Beg period and its structure on an intellectual level. Although it goes back more, the Tugrul Beg period is an important breakthrough. This period represents a political break not only for the Turks but also for the Islamic world of MidEast. For the first time, religious affairs and military functions were separated from each other in the Islamic caliphate. The sword passed to the Turks, the fatwa remained in the Abbasids. Caliph Kaim gave the titles Ruknu ʾd-Din (pillar of religion) and Malikul-Meşrik and Magrib (Sultan of the East and the West) to Tugrul Bey and declared him Sultan. For more detailed studies about cultural traces; please examine other Muslim states where the Turks controlled the state structure in the 8-9-10th centuries; they took the army and the administration and separated the rest from it.

Today, the state is not dominated by religion, but it cannot stay away from its consent. Because the state belongs to its people who created it. The strengthening of democracy means that Islam will also become stronger. The correlation between these two phenomena keeps both Islam and the pursuit of democratization alive.

edit: oh I just saw the title's some other msgs. I guess I wrote all this in the wrong place because the purpose here is not to discuss facts, but to distort and instrumentalize some notions related to political agenda.

 

[Bilal9]

Your classic example of this retardness. I have a particular political and social view point on Islam, mullahs and it's destructive effect on Pakistan since 1947. Now you can debate or discuss and deconstruct my view point which I have every right to hold. I am open to it being questioned or debated where I will of course defend my thinking.

Of course on PDF there are too many retards to understand the concept of debate and people holding alternate views to your own. And you sadly are no differant. Instead of tryimng to de-construct or rebut me you begin hurling personal insults which only proves you are a narrow minded retard exactly like Saad Rizvi and others.

You lot complain about Hindus lynching Muslims. Well how is this fcukin differant? Anybody does not share your idea of religion is target to get PDF lynched.

Awright - calm down.

Not everyone is trying to be serious all the time.

Don't take things personally on an online forum....all in the mix brother.

De-construction of arguments will come after Iftaar.

 

[T-SaGe]

rkey is quite exception in Muslim world due to the influence of de-Islamization during Ataturk period.

What is "de-Islamization" ?

If you are ignorant about discussing, it is best to keep quiet.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Fcuk em all

@Indus Pakistan that goes for you too hahahaha

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

What is "de-Islamization" ?

If you are ignorant about discussing, it is best to keep quiet.

He is historically correct my bro. In that times Turkey was in practice doing same stuff that China is doing today in XinJiang. It was only about a decade ago Turk hijabi girls were being attacked just for wearing hijab that was seen as extremism by the military controlled government of the time.

I mean no offense. I'm sure @Indos does not either but it is a historical fact bro.

Turkey is a beautiful place. That is blessed with an amazing location and historically it was blessed with great prosperity. But the tumultuous division between left wing and right wing has caused quite a bit of harm.

In my opinion (maybe in your view it won't count a lot) but I believe cumhur başkan Erdoğan is doing a great job of balancing liberal and traditional Turks.

 

[T-SaGe]

My question is clear. Leave the slogans, explain the your arguements with historical justifications. Here I will tell you about Atatürk's services to Islam.

 

[Iltutmish]

The Ottoman Empire was in decline since the early 1700s and it had some weird notions about Islam and traditions. Ottoman sultans killed their brothers or jailed them til their official inthronisation (this made them mad because isolation makes you mad).

The Indian Muslims never recognized their caliphate, in facts Mughals were against the Ottomans. The Delhi Sultanate had a tiny Abbasid influence but that was it. Pakistanis are blind when it comes to Turkey (let's be honest we even love India more than Pakistan) and are their biggest fanboys.

@Indus Pakistan
Why are you so obsessed with mini skirts and alcohol drinking women? Are you into rap videos? My religion NEVER blocked me from becoming successful in life, in fact it was my main driver to make as much money and degrees as possible. Muslims need Muslim role models and not some random Raki addicts from Turkey.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

And this is why I dont understand of why AKP can still win there, basically the society is much liberal than other Muslim countries (except ex USSR region in Central Asia which also experience de-Islamization during Communist rule)

Brother this is because left wing Turks are centered in West Coast areas like Istanbul, Bursa etc. There are other Turks spread around in the Kara Deniz region, then you Kurds, Gaziantep, new Arab migrants etc.

So most of the most dedicated CHP and other Kemalist/secularist supporters are centered in the Western, North Western parts. Rest AKP draws support from traditional and moderate muslims of other areas mentioned.

Turkey is really a mix for the most part. You might meet a Turk who is very good muslim Mashallah full practicing. You might meet a Turk who might say it's okay to drink because of some weird reason but can't miss prayer. And you might meet a Turk who says everything is halal. So yea an interesting phenomena.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Your classic example of this retardness. I have a particular political and social view point on Islam, mullahs and it's destructive effect on Pakistan since 1947. Now you can debate or discuss and deconstruct my view point which I have every right to hold. I am open to it being questioned or debated where I will of course defend my thinking.

Of course on PDF there are too many retards to understand the concept of debate and people holding alternate views to your own. And you sadly are no differant. Instead of tryimng to de-construct or rebut me you begin hurling personal insults which only proves you are a narrow minded retard exactly like Saad Rizvi and others.

You lot complain about Hindus lynching Muslims. Well how is this fcukin differant? Anybody does not share your idea of religion is target to get PDF lynched.

Interesting tour of Sultan Erdogan's Istanbul. After ruling for 20 years and with almost absolute power in the last 10 years we can see Dar al Islam. Reminds me of Peshawar, Islamabad and Lahore. Not Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris.

In the last 20 years, Turkey has becomed a very developed, powerful, wealthy and advanced country that it is practically a developed nation now. It has even significantly surpassed Greece. There is a HUGE amount we Pakistanis can learn from Turkey.

 

[Varunastra]

The Ottoman Empire was in decline since the early 1700s and it had some weird notions about Islam and traditions. Ottoman sultans killed their brothers or jailed them til their official inthronisation (this made them mad because isolation makes you mad).

The Indian Muslims never recognized their caliphate, in facts Mughals were against the Ottomans. The Delhi Sultanate had a tiny Abbasid influence but that was it. Pakistanis are blind when it comes to Turkey (let's be honest we even love India more than Pakistan) and are their biggest fanboys.

Not all blind I would say, where people recognize that historical facts are being meddled with they speak up. See this video where it was shown that Shah Jahan bowed down to Turkish Sultan Murad, both Indians and Pakistanis are mad and defending Shah Jahan in the comments against Turkish misinformation.