Obama just took a parting shot at Israel — and Trump — at the UN

[Mage]

hmm what If I told you it will be done in 2-3 months

I'd regard it as wishful thinking

 

[Solomon2]

What I believe is Jews should be allowed to live wherever they want as well.

It would be cool if Jews could "be allowed to live wherever they want". But experience shows they cannot do so in the Arab-ruled countries nearby. Even in the case of Lebanon, which allowed absentee Jews to retain their property and has even rebuilt their synagogue, as far as I know the Jews expelled cannot return.

However, this trend may be reversing. The leader here is Syria. Two Syrian opposition groups recently invited the Jews to return.and reclaim their property. Not that there's much left: in the Syria war thread there's a video of the devastation the Syria War wreaked on what was once the Jewish section of Damascus. Much of the Jews' community property (synagogues, community centers, cemeteries, etc.) was seized and given to Palestinian Arab "refugees", or paved over, or trashed. And the opposition is going to have to win its struggle with the Assad regime first.

Perhaps equally important, however, is that the Arabs who live in areas currently controlled by Israel or in Gaza should also have the right to migrate and become citizens of other states. Because property values in Israel-controlled areas are high, and the Arabs comparatively well-educated, the market for their skills in the Arab world and the decreased cost of living would likely make migration attractive for many. Currently most don't have that right, even if they have extended family in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc., because most Arab (and, I think, Western) political leaders still see a large, trapped Arab population as yet another arrow in the quiver in their war against Israel.

So the ones in Israeli-controlled areas can't migrate, and the ones outside are restricted to camps, even if they have jobs outside them. this discrimination against "Palestinians" is the true form of apartheid they are subjected to in the region: just like South African blacks, they have to live in Bantustans yet live to serve their masters outside them.

And you probably didn't realize that until now, because for seventy years and more Arab leaders have invested their financial, ideological, and terror resources into turning the truth upside-down, and convincing Western leaders to do the same.

Sorry, I don't think I have enough time or interest to read a whole book on that matter. However, if there is a point or two you'd like me to know from the book, you may very well state here or write on my page.

Then I suggest going to the Amazon page and reading the reviews, both pro- and con-.

No. No one is bound to do anything. Not Israel at least. And a 2 state solution is no longer possible. Israel won't leave Judea, Samaria or East Jerusalem.

That is not the reason. The reason is that the current Palestinian leadership, and any future one that can be imagined, will not countenance the permanent, rightful existence of Jewish self-determination in any part of the region. That's what the U.N. knows and what it is trying to avoid politically acknowledging by condemning the Jews instead.

The basic thing is any realistic solution is not popular among Israelis. Because all of them requires Israel to give up something.

You don't know Jews very well, do you? Jews and the Israeli gov'ts they elect have proved willing to give up land if it brings peace; that was done with Egypt and Jordan and Arafat. But to surrender land to avowed enemies who see it as an advance towards the Jews' destruction does not further the cause of peace but makes conflict more likely.

At this point the best thing is to wait and see how thing evolves.

"The best thing" for whom? The Jews? The Arabs? Or are you talking about yourself?

 

[Mage]

It would be cool if Jews could "be allowed to live wherever they want". But experience shows they cannot do so in the Arab-ruled countries nearby. Even in the case of Lebanon, which allowed absentee Jews to retain their property and has even rebuilt their synagogue, as far as I know the Jews expelled cannot return.

However, this trend may be reversing. The leader here is Syria. Two Syrian opposition groups recently invited the Jews to return.and reclaim their property. Not that there's much left: in the Syria war thread there's a video of the devastation the Syria War wreaked on what was once the Jewish section of Damascus. Much of the Jews' community property (synagogues, community centers, cemeteries, etc.) was seized and given to Palestinian Arab "refugees", or paved over, or trashed. And the opposition is going to have to win its struggle with the Assad regime first.

Perhaps equally important, however, is that the Arabs who live in areas currently controlled by Israel or in Gaza should also have the right to migrate and become citizens of other states. Because property values in Israel-controlled areas are high, and the Arabs comparatively well-educated, the market for their skills in the Arab world and the decreased cost of living would likely make migration attractive for many. Currently most don't have that right, even if they have extended family in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc., because most Arab (and, I think, Western) political leaders still see a large, trapped Arab population as yet another arrow in the quiver in their war against Israel.

So the ones in Israeli-controlled areas can't migrate, and the ones outside are restricted to camps, even if they have jobs outside them. this discrimination against "Palestinians" is the true form of apartheid they are subjected to in the region: just like South African blacks, they have to live in Bantustans yet live to serve their masters outside them.

And you probably didn't realize that until now, because for seventy years and more Arab leaders have invested their financial, ideological, and terror resources into turning the truth upside-down, and convincing Western leaders to do the same.

Jews couldn't live in Europe either. It's quite one sided for you to only mention Arab-ruled countries, isn't it?

As for rest of your post, Egypt or other countries won't take Palestinians. They don't have shortage in manpower. And most importantly, it is not heir problem. I'd agree that Egypt doesn't treat Palestinians better than Israel, but that doesn't do any good to Israel, does it?

Like I said an agreement is possible if Israel puts their mind to it, like that take West Bank only if Egypt takes Gaza. Then give everyone equal rights. If they can convince the Arabs and implement it accordingly, then I see this problem ending positively. Otherwise I see a birth rate race in small land of Israel. But if that's what Bibi and his fanboys prefer, let it be.

That is not the reason. The reason is that the current Palestinian leadership, and any future one that can be imagined, will not countenance the permanent, rightful existence of Jewish self-determination in any part of the region. That's what the U.N. knows and what it is trying to avoid politically acknowledging by condemning the Jews instead.

You don't know Jews very well, do you? Jews and the Israeli gov'ts they elect have proved willing to give up land if it brings peace; that was done with Egypt and Jordan and Arafat. But to surrender land to avowed enemies who see it as an advance towards the Jews' destruction does not further the cause of peace but makes conflict more likely.

Palestinian leadership is a joke. They are incapable of doin anything, let alone solving the problem.

And I know Israel offered to accept a demilitarized Palestinian state and give up a portion of the demanded land which was not acceptable to the other party. And Arafat probably had issues with Palestinian right to return thingy. But that doesn't change the fact that giving up land is an unpopular idea among the Israeli population now.

And I don't know Jew well, I agree. Only met a few in my life. Can't say I dislike the ones I met.

"The best thing" for whom? The Jews? The Arabs? Or are you talking about yourself

For me, as an outsider spectator. Or hopefully for every parties involved

 

[Solomon2]

Jews couldn't live in Europe either. It's quite one sided for you to only mention Arab-ruled countries, isn't it?

Red herring. We weren't talking about allowing non-Jewish Europeans to migrate into Israel and become citizens.

As for rest of your post, Egypt or other coi tries won't take Palestinians. They don't have shortage in manpower. And most importantly, it is not heir problem. I'd agree that Egypt doesn't treat Palestinians better than Israel, but that doesn't do any good to Israel, does it?

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

by Abu Mazen [current "Palestinian Presdent" Mahmoud Abbas], from his article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976​

Thus the burden of moral responsibility of the surrounding Arab states far exceeds that of Israel.

Like I said an agreement is possible if Israel puts their mind to it, like that take West Bank only if Egypt takes Gaza.

Egypt refused to "take Gaza" decades ago. Why would Egypt change its mind now?

Then give everyone equal rights. If they can convince the Arabs -

There you go: the Jews only have rights if they can "convince the Arabs" - i.e., the Arabs have a veto over Jews' civil, property and political rights, i.e., the Arabs have the right to destroy Israel.

...Otherwise I see a birth rate race in small land of Israel -

I think that argument is a wash; current Arab and Jewish birthrates are nearly equal.

For me, as an outsider spectator. Or hopefully for every parties involved

I appreciate your honesty. So you should appreciate that the course that may be easiest and most beneficial to you may not be the just course for the parties involved. (Certainly President Obama does not appreciate this.)

 

[Mage]

Thus the burden of moral responsibility of the surrounding Arab states far exceeds that of Israel.

No one has any moral responsibility. It's just Israel has a problem.

Egypt refused to "take Gaza" decades ago. Why would Egypt change its mind now?

They won't unless they are pressured by other Arab countries. For that to happen, Israel will have to come out and say they'll take West Bank. This is Israel's problem now. Not Egypt's.

There you go: the Jews only have rights if they can "convince the Arabs" - i.e., the Arabs have a veto over Jews' civil, property and political rights, i.e., the Arabs have the right to destroy Israel.

You are twisting my words. I'm merely saying that Israel need to get into some sort of agreements wit the Arab countries. Palestinian leaderships don't have enough credibility. Israel need guarantee that they don't have any other responsibility after taking West Bank. Then there won't be any sanctions again them. And they will start diplomatic relations with them. Good for Israel. Nothing I said, requires Jews do give up their rights. Unless you uselessly twist it to fit your agenda.

I think that argument is a wash; current Arab and Jewish birthrates are nearly equal.

Again you are twisting my words. I never said Israel's Jewish identity is at stake. I'm stating that Israel is a small land and has quite a high birth rate among citizens. And they will keep it this way because of the paranoia of becoming a minority.

I appreciate your honesty. So you should appreciate that the course that may be easiest and most beneficial to you may not be the just course for the parties involved. (Certainly President Obama does not appreciate this.)

Same applies for you too, right?

 

[Solomon2]

No one has any moral responsibility. It's just Israel has a problem.

"No one has any moral responsibility"? Explain.

You are twisting my words. I'm merely saying that Israel need to get into some sort of agreements wit the Arab countries.

I beg your pardon. I've gotten a bit more defensive recently so I may have misinterpreted your words.

....Israel is a small land and has quite a high birth rate among citizens. And they will keep it this way because of the paranoia of becoming a minority.

Good grief. Does it have to be "paranoia" rather than supposing Israelis like to make love and raise kids? Really.

 

[Mage]

"No one has any moral responsibility"? Explain.

You know it better than me. The fact that Egypt doesn't treat Palestinians better than Israel, explains it fine. They don't consider it their problem and don't want anything to do with it.

I beg your pardon. I've gotten a bit more defensive recently so I may have misinterpreted your words.]

No problem.

Good grief. Does it have to be "paranoia" rather than supposing Israelis like to make love and raise kids? Really.

That's quite a reply. Haha.

On a serious note, you know it better than me as well. I'll post some article later regarding Israel's birth rate and demographic challenge, if you want. But you know them too well already

 

[Solomon2]

Same applies for you too, right?

President Obama's attitude is that his interest must become Israel's interest. As a Zionist I have a voice but as an American I accept I don't cast a vote in Israeli elections, nor is it my place to decide Israel's sovereign affairs.

 

[Mage]

President Obama's attitude is that his interest must become Israel's interest. As a Zionist I have a voice but as an American I accept I don't cast a vote in Israeli elections, nor is it my place to decide Israel's sovereign affairs.

I simply asked that what you said should apply to me, should it apply to you as well? And you bring Mr. Obama here. You're giving me too much respect.

So, what maybe the best solution in your opinion, may not be the best solution for the parties involved. Do you agree?

 

[Solomon2]

So, what maybe the best solution in your opinion, may not be the best solution for the parties involved -

I did not offer a "best solution", did I? You're the one who writes of "realistic solutions", not appreciating, not even now, that your assessment of "real" may be in error and that your desire for "solution" may be morally at fault.

 

[Mage]

I did not offer a "best solution", did I? You're the one who writes of "realistic solutions", not appreciating, not even now, that your assessment of "real" may be in error and that your desire for "solution" may be morally at fault.

Okay, I misunderstood it. Sorry for that.

So what do you think might be a realistic solution? Or do you prefer the no solution solution? And the solution of your preference may not be the right solution, do you agree?v

 

[Solomon2]

So what do you think might be a realistic solution?

I don't think it's up to Zionists to figure out a "solution" for the Palestinian Arabs.

As for Israel, it must be accepted, without any conditions or qualifications, that Jews have the right to life, liberty, property, etc. as citizens in other democracies do. (All of which has been perfectly cognizant with the guarantees and strictures of Mandate Law that the Zionists have followed towards the Arabs.)

As for the Palestinian "refugees", terrorists, and other enemies who seek Israel's destruction: to act towards them with justice and mercy. To act justly you go by the facts, in context: to act with mercy depends on the attitude of the persons in dock.

And yes, this means that "the Palestinians" may remain a problem - but not Israel's problem, not a problem of the Zionists to solve.

 

[Mage]

I don't think it's up to Zionists to figure out a "solution" for the Palestinian Arabs.

As for Israel, it must be accepted, without any conditions or qualifications, that Jews have the right to life, liberty, property, etc. as citizens in other democracies do. (All of which has been perfectly cognizant with the guarantees and strictures of Mandate Law that the Zionists have followed towards the Arabs.)

As for the Palestinian "refugees", terrorists, and other enemies who seek Israel's destruction: to act towards them with justice and mercy. To act justly you go by the facts, in context: to act with mercy depends on the attitude of the persons in dock.

And yes, this means that "the Palestinians" may remain a problem - but not Israel's problem, not a problem of the Zionists to solve.

A solution indeed. Good luck accomplishing that. I wouldn't have engaged in this debate, had I known what a bigot you are.

Anyway...good luck with your life.

 

[Solomon2]

A solution indeed. Good luck accomplishing that. I wouldn't have engaged in this debate, had I known what a bigot you are.

"Solutionism" is a kind of disease. As long as other countries, or the "Palestinians" themselves, insist on being a problem through criminal activities and genocidal ambitions they will be a problem.

Pointing that out does not make me a bigot. It illuminates that the ultimate source of "solution" isn't in Israeli deeds but in Arabs' hearts.

 

[Mage]

"Solutionism" is a kind of disease. As long as other countries, or the "Palestinians" themselves, insist on being a problem through criminal activities and genocidal ambitions they will be a problem.

Pointing that out does not make me a bigot. It illuminates that the ultimate source of "solution" isn't in Israeli deeds but in Arabs' hearts.

To simplify....what you are saying is you want to play the waiting game and prefer the no solution, solution.

Not really illogical to want that. But sustainability of it is questionable in the long term.

I have some problems with bigots. I get along with Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists. But don't get along with bigots whether they are Muslims, Jews or Christians. Never met any Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist bigot tho. But don't think I can get along with them either. And no bigot admits to being one.