Obama just took a parting shot at Israel — and Trump — at the UN

[Solomon2]

No I mean everyone living in Israeli controlled areas should have equal rights. Be it Tel Aviv, Haifa or West Bank

That would mean demanding that the Palestinian Arabs allow Jews to buy and sell property in their Judea-Samaria neighborhoods and that when a Jew gets robbed or murdered by an Arab the perps are to be treated as much as criminals as if a Jew had done the same to an Arab. Essentially, you're talking about becoming a Zionist and demanding the reversal of the just-passed S.C.. resolution.

 

[Mage]

That would mean demanding that the Palestinian Arabs allow Jews to buy and sell property in their Judea-Samaria neighborhoods and that when a Jew gets robbed or murdered by an Arab the perps are to be treated as much as criminals as if a Jew had done the same to an Arab. Essentially, you're talking about becoming a Zionist and demanding the reversal of the just-passed S.C.. resolution.

I'm talking about a state where everyone, Jews, Palestinian Arabs, and others get to vote. Judged in the same way. Also undemocratic law of Jews right to return to be reviewed. I mean Israel can give citizenship to people in West Bank and can still remain two third Jewish. I'm not advocating to do same with Gaza as there are no settlements there.

 

[Solomon2]

I'm talking about a state where everyone, Jews, Palestinian Arabs, and others get to vote.

No, you're moving the goalposts. Basically you're talking about eliminating Israel as the Jewish National Home, for once Arabs wield coercive power - whether gained from elections or from guns - they will do what they have done everywhere else:expel "others', distributing their property for the gain of their supporters, all part of establishing the family-clan system that rules everyday lives, whereas the "natiional" leadership is merely the group of thugs on top.

Did you even know that all Arab countries, without exception, have violated the terms of the Palestine Mandate, which required them to respect Jews' property and civil rights within Arab political entities? And now that you know, are you willing to use this to hammer them for their thefts?

I'm not advocating to do same with Gaza as there are no settlements there.

So Arabs can live anywhere they want, but Jews can't live anywhere in the Middle East other than Israel, and that of course can change once Arabs flood the country under your proposed abolishment of the Law of Return. How very humane and just you are!

 

[Mage]

No, you're moving the goalposts. Basically you're talking about eliminating Israel as the Jewish National Home, for once Arabs wield coercive power - whether gained from elections or from guns - they will do what they have done everywhere else:expel "others', distributing their property for the gain of their supporters, all part of establishing the family-clan system that rules everyday lives, whereas the "natiional" leadership is merely the group of thugs on top.

Did you even know that all Arab countries, without exception, have violated the terms of the Palestine Mandate, which required them to respect Jews' property and civil rights within Arab political entities? And now that you know, are you willing to use this to hammer them for their thefts?

So Arabs can live anywhere they want, but Jews can't live anywhere in the Middle East other than Israel, and that of course can change once Arabs flood the country under your proposed abolishment of the Law of Return. How very humane and just you are!

What I believe is Jews should be allowed to live wherever they want as well. I personally don't care much about religion but as I said even with West Bank population Israel will be 65% Jewish. So, it might give them Arabs more power in the elections, it does not make Jews powerless. With the amount of settlements in west Bank, you guys are not pulling out from there. If you wanna play the waiting game, your choice. That's what Bibi is doing.
Obviously Jewish right to return is not a democratic law. I heard some Israelis criticize it too.

 

[Solomon2]

Obviously Jewish right to return is not a democratic law.

Every country controls its immigration, yes?

If you're talking about Palestinian Arab "refugees" - and "refugees" is in quotes because the world uses a unique definition that applies only to them - these are the Arabs whose community leaders or they themselves vowed to undertake armed opposition to their Jewish neighbors in 1948 or 1967 (or who moved from their home to the enemy camps to take advantage of the U.N. food dole and free education.) Under Mandate law the Jews surrendered none of their civil or property rights as existed under the Ottomans: that included the right not be robbed and murdered at will, of course.

On the other hand, Arabs who did engage in the same surrendered those very rights. Under Turkish standards, their lives were forfeit as well. Ben-Gurion was trained as an Ottoman lawyer. He knew what Jews had the right to do. That the unrepentant Arabs were expelled rather than slain en masse was and is due to the Zionists' mercy, not any form of criminal rapacity. And these Arabs and their descendants can claim neither the moral nor the legal right to return.

 

[Mage]

Every country controls its immigration, yes?

If you're talking about Palestinian Arab "refugees" - and "refugees" is in quotes because the world uses a unique definition that applies only to them - these are the Arabs whose community leaders or they themselves vowed to undertake armed opposition to their Jewish neighbors in 1948 or 1967 (or who moved from their home to the enemy camps to take advantage of the U.N. food dole and free education.) Under Mandate law the Jews surrendered none of their civil or property rights as existed under the Ottomans: that included the right not be robbed and murdered at will, of course.

On the other hand, Arabs who did engage in the same surrendered those very rights. Under Turkish standards, their lives were forfeit as well. Ben-Gurion was trained as an Ottoman lawyer. He knew what Jews had the right to do. That the unrepentant Arabs were expelled rather than slain en masse was and is due to the Zionists' mercy, not any form of criminal rapacity. And these Arabs and their descendants can claim neither the moral nor the legal right to return.

I'm not saying Israel should take back the Arabs that left 40-50 years ago. I'm just saying that giving citizenship to people currently living in West Bank does little harm to Israel. And that much harm they can easily manage.

So, I guess you agree with rest of my post, which you didn't quote?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

20-30 Year old need for 2 state in region , nothing out of ordinary

 

[Mage]

20-30 Year old need for 2 state in region , nothing out of ordinary

2 states won't happen. With Trump and Bibi in office Israel will built more and more in the West Bank and they will probably shift American embassy to Jerusalem.

The best Israel can hope for in the long term is, they take West Bank and Egypt takes Gaza. This way Israel can be a Jewish majority and a democratic state while keeping most of the parties involved happy.

Otherwise, they can wait and wait and hope things remain this way. However, Arabs aren't unwilling to stall for time either. Make it a birth rate race inside small Israel and hope one side gives in. It may take 100 or even 200 years. But not like they care. Not the Arabs at least.

 

[Solomon2]

I'm not saying Israel should take back the Arabs that left 40-50 years ago. I'm just saying that giving citizenship to people currently living in West Bank does little harm to Israel. And that much harm they can easily manage.

You may want to read Caroline Glick's book, The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East.

So, I guess you agree with rest of my post, which you didn't quote?

Not sure yet.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think the accord already exists and Israel is bound to implement it since it recieved billions in US funding for last 20 years under its pretext

 

[Mage]

You may want to read Caroline Glick's book, The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East.

.

Sorry, I don't think I have enough time or interest to read a whole book on that matter. However, if there is a point or two you'd like me to know from the book, you may very well state here or write on my page.

Not sure yet.

Let me know when you're sure. Nice talking to you.

I think the accord already exists and Israel is bound to implement it since it recieved billions in US funding for last 20 years under its pretext

No. No one is bound to do anything. Not Israel at least. And a 2 state solution is no longer possible. Israel won't leave Judea, Samaria or East Jerusalem.

The main issue is, any Israeli govt that gives up those lands won't be winning an election in 100 years. The basic thing is any realistic solution is not popular among Israelis. Because all of them requires Israel to give up something. Like give more power to Arabs in a one state solution, which our dear Solomon is unwilling to do. Or give up lands in a 2 state solution which they are unwilling as well. However here are plenty of liberal movements inside Israel as well. And off course there are people inside Israel who wishes for a peaceful coexistence. At this point the best thing is to wait and see how thing evolves.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think iraq was bombed becasue they did not complied with Security council mandate I expect a proper similar response for not following procedure

Israel signed the accord and so it is bound "contractual" obligation to give seperate state to Palestinians

Was it not that Iran was sanctioned for 10-20 years fore merely keeping its weapon's program active quite a double standard it would be

 

[Mage]

I think iraq was bombed becasue they did not complied with Security council mandate I expect a proper similar response.

Israel signed the accord and so it is bound "contractual" obligation to give seperate state to Palestinians

Iraq is not Israel. And no one would dare to bomb Israel. Israelis know that as well as UN security council.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

hahaha why is that

 

[Mage]

hahaha why is that

You may want to google "Samson Option"

Was it not that Iran was sanctioned for 10-20 years fore merely keeping its weapon's program active quite a double standard it would be

Israel in the future can be sanctioned by the UN if US starts thinking that Muslim votes are more important than Jewish votes and money. For that to happen Muslims need to make up much larger percentage of population in US tho. It is not entirely impossible to sanction Israel via UN in the future. But I doubt how effective it would be.

P.S. By"in the future" I mean at least 20 or 30 years later.