Now defects in the LCA!

[Awesome]

Light Combat Aircraft: questions over installed thrust

Bangalore: Sea-level flights of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that India’s fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.

Prototype vehicles PV2 and PV3 were put through 24 flights over two weeks at INS Rajali at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu recently. Being at sea level Arakkonam offered a dramatically different environment from that of Bangalore, which is 3,018 feet above sea level. It was in Bangalore that all the LCA flying was until then done. With the longest runway of its kind in India, INS Rajali enabled Tejas to undertake extensive low-level flying, something that is not possible in Bangalore.

The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas’ systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were “largely successful.” But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes.

Informed sources attribute this to insufficient installed thrust from the power plant after its integration with the air frame. Engineers working with the programme say modifications including to the aircraft’s air intakes will have to be made or a new engine installed. Both solutions will be time-consuming.

Informed sources say a solution would necessarily have to be found since the aircraft is not likely to clear (low-level) final operation clearance (FOC) with the present installed thrust. It is unlikely that the end-user, the Indian Air Force, which in 2006 placed an order for 20 of the aircraft, be happy to induct an under-powered machine.

The LCA now uses the General Electric (GE) designed and manufactured F 404 engine, which generates a static thrust of 80.5 kN (kiloNewton). But installed thrust being dependent on the mating of the engine with the air frame, the amount of air that flows into the engine (air intake), aero dynamism, cowling, wings, and so on, it can be lower than the static thrust. Informed sources say this is what has happened in the case of the Tejas. They say the installed thrust losses are “on account of issues with the air intake design and mating of the engine with the airframe.”

The LCA programme’s limited series production and the 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered will fly with specially modified GE 404 IN20 engines. But informed sources say that though these engines have Full Authority Digital Engine Control, longer life and hot-end components, they may not be able to generate at sea level the needed installed thrust. A new, more powerful engine such as the GE 414 (which powers the F-16 Super Hornet), whose core is the same as the GE 404 but is heavier or a similar engine, may have to be tried.

The genesis of the current issues relating to the engine can be traced to the non-availability of the Kaveri engine that was expected to fly the Tejas, but which is still nowhere in sight. The non-availability of the Kaveri has meant that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is designing the LCA, is forced to look elsewhere for an alternative.

The ADA, though, is not too perturbed with the lack of installed thrust at low levels. Says P.S. Subramanyam, its Programme Director (Combat Aircraft): “The programme is on the fast track. We are planning to fit drop tanks and mid port bombs very shortly. Missile firing is also being planned. The present engines (F 404) will see me through IOC and FOC.”

The LCA, which has so far undertaken 725 flights, is scheduled to get initial operational clearance in late-2010 and FOC in 2011-12.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/15/stories/2007081558470100.htm

Too bad, maybe they should take foreign help and work out the kinks and then go back and do it on their own.

From this article I gather, the engine works, the airframes good, but the way they put the two together screwed things up.

 

[IceCold]

Too bad for the indians, they were looking to replace the migs with the LCA, seems like its still a long way to go. Perhaps foreign assistance should be acquired if they ever want to make this plane fly.

 

[Titanium]

Too bad for the indians, they were looking to replace the migs with the LCA, seems like its still a long way to go. Perhaps foreign assistance should be acquired if they ever want to make this plane fly.

That mean you assume LCA is "indeginous" LCA is from the design -dassault, FBW-Lockheed,Radar-Israel, to everything is dependent on foriegn assistance. For all the assistance provided by aerospace gaints--Dassault, BAE to Lockheed Martin, LCA still will be going back to drawing boards.

You will now see 5 gen LCA! why 5 gen? coz it will the latest to come out of drawing boards: whatever that maybe

 

[IceCold]

That mean you assume LCA is "indeginous" LCA is from the design -dassault, FBW-Lockheed,Radar-Israel, to everything is dependent on foriegn assistance. For all the assistance provided by aerospace gaints--Dassault, BAE to Lockheed Martin, LCA still will be going back to drawing boards.

You will now see 5 gen LCA! why 5 gen? coz it will the latest to come out of drawing boards: whatever that maybe

Well i meant since india is unbale to solve the puzzle since to many countires are involved so then why not let them assemble it too, why to delay the project in the name of there ego and so called theory of indeginous?

 

[Awesome]

See whatever it is they have a job to complete and the final product should meet a User Acceptace Test.

This is just horrible project management nothing else.

 

[joey]

Asim.. Read on cross posting,

Here is one more issue [or is it more than one] which they forgot in design stage maybe :

"Sea-level flights of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), have thrown up questions relating to its installed thrust. If these are not resolved, it is possible that India’s fourth generation fighter aircraft programme, launched in 1983, could get further delayed.

The sea-level tests, basically meant to test the reliability of Tejas’ systems in dense (hot and humid) atmospheric conditions and its low-level flight characteristics, were “largely successful.” But it also became clear that the performance at sea level did not meet some key points in its flight envelope: notably in terms of maximum speed and take-off. Here the aircraft was not able to meet its targeted maximum speed of Mach 1.05, although it had been touching Mach 1.6 at higher altitudes"

As I have told you I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of knowing, The report is by Ravi sharma who reported how tejas only did some 30 test flights to test its envelope and all others were infront of ministers and foreign delegations. The same journo was also the one who wrote off the MMR as a failure (along with Arror whom I personally know) only to have details released later that the A2G mode was to be finalized. He also claimed that there were such huge losses in power transfer that range was reduced- on the LCA. Turned out that it was the HACK the MMR testbed, and the LCA in contrast has a fully allotted rack for the electronics to be colocated with the RF transmitters.This same twit also wrote that the LCA sufferred from poor estate management- upon asking, it turned out that it was an issue with the first TDs because of all the Flight test instrumentation stuffed into the bird. Fool also wrote that "anything less than an AESA is obsolete"- this when the MKI has a PESA, the Mirage and MiG-29 upgrades are getting MSA!

'Informed Sources' in Indian defence as per article also speaks, how good Shtil 1 system is over Barak they also speaks how bad Arjun is over T90 and also speaks how good Gorshkov is for India.

I'll quote,

P.S. Subramanyam, Programme Director LCA from the same article chich seperates the chaff from wheat,

“The programme is on the fast track. We are planning to fit drop tanks and mid port bombs very shortly. Missile firing is also being planned. The present engines (F 404) will see me through IOC and FOC.”

Alas he cant even quote him properly, there is nothing called as mid port bombs.

Also reports,

A new, more powerful engine such as the GE 414 (which powers the F-16 Super Hornet), whose core is the same as the GE 404 but is heavier or a similar engine, may have to be tried.

F16 Falcon becomes a F-18 Super-Hornet when it get Super Hornet's F414 engine. Or put space shuttle engine and LCA will become a spacecraft.

 

[Awesome]

I know more about Indian defence system than you will ever dream of knowing

Yes that's what I'm dreaming off all the time

Too much bollywood!

 

[joey]

Yes that's what I'm dreaming off all the time

Too much bollywood!

Atleast I dont pretend to be a wannabe like the self porclaimed experts nor I am a expert what I know I said. not that I have to prove my credibility to get a opinion across because it is always the other way around as the informations I gave can be verified from open sources.

Afterall, The bigger patriot, the guy who is willing to lose an argument on internet forum or idiot telling everything told to him in confidence, cheers have your way bring up these 'facts' 3 years later I'll reply you then Just like Titanium bought some irrefutable reports from past to substantiate his supposedly some of 'irrefutable' claims.

Problems can be there which can happen but issue here is HOW THE MEDIA REPORTS THINGS is not the correct way because it does not paints the true picture by ANY means, I have already posted the issue regarding previous articles of Ravi sharma.

Bottomline, there is no way of confirming anything until and unless we get to hear de-factro official report, we can only judge the status of a reporter based on his past reporting and verifying the same with official sources when they came out.

 

[HAIDER]

Time for new engine......

 

[Awesome]

Atleast I dont pretend to be a wannabe like the self porclaimed experts nor I am a expert what I know I said. not that I have to prove my credibility to get a opinion across because it is always the other way around as the informations I gave can be verified from open sources.

Afterall, The bigger patriot, the guy who is willing to lose an argument on internet forum or idiot telling everything told to him in confidence, cheers have your way bring up these 'facts' 3 years later I'll reply you then Just like Titanium bought some irrefutable reports from past to substantiate his supposedly some of 'irrefutable' claims.

Problems can be there which can happen but issue here is HOW THE MEDIA REPORTS THINGS is not the correct way because it does not paints the true picture by ANY means, I have already posted the issue regarding previous articles of Ravi sharma.

Bottomline, there is no way of confirming anything until and unless we get to hear de-factro official report, we can only judge the status of a reporter based on his past reporting and verifying the same with official sources when they came out.

Dude you are a "self proclaimed expert".

It would be nice if other people called you that... I'm sure you must be one but you're just reducing your value by boasting about it and seeming too eager.

I'm not dismissing the LCA, or the Indian scientists. But the person, the Project Manager, is definitely really lame.

Bottomline, there is no way of confirming anything until and unless we get to hear de-factro official report, we can only judge the status of a reporter based on his past reporting and verifying the same with official sources when they came out.

True, but we are not a court of law passing a verdict on DRDO. We are simple speculating and talking amongst ourselves. We are all guessing and can be right or wrong. This forum is not about being right or wrong, its about the "talking"!

PS, you really need to chill out and take things easy.

 

[joey]

^ I have not labelled you as self porclaimed expert, I did it to whom I mentioned, regarding I'm a self porclaimed expert or not It seems it is you who labelled me as such, why dont you simply prove me wrong?

I'm not even telling that you dismissed LCA or Indian scientists once in this thread, Dude Ravi sharma is a reporter whose previous reports were nothing but pure bullocks and I have told you where they were.

PS, you really need to chill out and take things easy.

correct but it gets high when reporters starts reporting like this, The Hindu though communist is the last proper scientific news journal left in India rest ALL THE MEDIAS are either run by someone from UK/US or by some other..

 

[Awesome]

^ I have not labelled you as self porclaimed expert, I did it to whom I mentioned, regarding I'm a self porclaimed expert or not It seems it is you who labelled me as such, why dont you simply prove me wrong?

I'm not even telling that you dismissed LCA or Indian scientists once in this thread, Dude Ravi sharma is a reporter whose previous reports were nothing but pure bullocks and I have told you where they were.

Theek, ok fine.

 

[joey]

There is nothing that gets me high other than mis-reporting and how the indian establishment suffers from such vested interests. DRDO lacks PR job because it does not enjoy the autonomy like ISRO to do so.

Who did this man die fighting? (Vishal
Thapar)

New Delhi, August 9: An upright naval
commander refuses to approve a faulty
weapons system in Russia. He and his
commissioning team are flown back toIndia. Six months later he is killed in a
mysterious hit-and-run case. A year after his
death, the commander gets a gallantry
award. People, especially those in the navy,
are drawing the obvious conclusion: that an
arms mafia had him killed. This is the story
of Commander Nawaz Ahmed. As the
commissioning officer of the Russian-built
Krivak-III class frigate, christened INS
Talwar, he realised during acceptance trials
in 2002 that a key on-board weapon system
the Shtil-1 surface-to-air missile was
malfunctioning. The Talwar was to be the
first of the three stealth frigates inducted
into the navy at an aggregate cost of $1
billion. But Ahmed resisted allurement and
intimidation in insisting that the Shtil snag
first be rectified. With penalty clauses for
delays specified in the contract, the stakes
for the sellers were high. They pressed for
acceptance of the ship and promised to
rectify the problem post-delivery. But on
Ahmed's advice, the navy refused to take
delivery of the warship till the ability of
Shtil-I to hit airborne targets was
demonstrated. The 180-strong
commissioning crew was flown back. This
set the delivery schedule back by over a
year. Six months after returning to New
Delhi, the commander was killed near
Chanakyapuri. He was on his regular
morning jog when a speeding water tanker
hit him near the Italian Embassy at Satya
Marg on June 19, 2003. But the general
belief in the navy is that Ahmed was killed
by an arms mafia.

 

[Neo]

Joey, this one is from Janes Defence:

Technical and cost problems stall India's LCA​

RAHUL BEDI JDW Correspondent
New Delhi

India's 17-year-old Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, delayed by more than a decade, continues to be plagued by serious technical uncertainties and cost overruns, according to India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).

A new CAG report states that the LCA's development by the Aeronautical Development Agency, which is funded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, is "beset with delays for almost every vital component of the aircraft".

The project cost has quadrupled from Rs5.60 billion ($129 million) to Rs21.88 billion for the development phase with the production phase still awaiting clearance. The unit cost of each LCA assessed at Rs100 million in 1985 had increased to between Rs800 million and Rs850 million, according to the CAG.

The CAG report added that the delay in the LCA's development had "compelled" the Indian Air Force to seek interim measures to cover the shortfall of aircraft by upgrading around 125 MiG-21bis fighters for Rs21.35 billion. The LCA was originally expected to begin replacing the MiG-21s, which form the backbone of the IAF, by the late 1990s. The MiG-21 upgrade being undertaken in Russia is itself two years behind schedule.


The report said that development of the LCA's airframe; its multi-mode radar developed jointly by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment; its flight control system; and the local Kaveri engine by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment are all behind schedule.

It added there is "no amount of certainty about their expected date of satisfactory development and final cost".

Last month the LCA technology demonstrator (TD-1), which completed its first round of taxi trials at Bangalore last April, again failed to make its test flight, some 20 months behind schedule, despite assurances by Dr A J P Abdul Kalam, principal scientific adviser to the government. Official sources said it would be several months before it can be test flown as it is presently undergoing low-speed taxi trials and flight-control systems integration.

The first two LCA prototypes will be powered by US General Electric F404-FJ23 engines despite protests from the US government after Washington imposed sanctions on India for its 1998 nuclear tests. In 1986 India bought 11 engines for Rs6.62 billion for the prototype LCAs.

The US engine will ultimately be replaced by the locally-developed Kaveri, which has undergone extensive testing in Russia (Jane's Defence Weekly 2 September 1998).

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw000204_01_n.shtml

 

[joey]

Neo seriously....The report is by Rahul Bedi (nothing much against him other than misreporting regarding LRAAM et al), and has been beaten to death in many other forums and is FROM 1998!

The principality of the report sorrounds itself around the CAG report, CAG report itself are based on 2 year old data to begin with (please refer to naval Sonar recent issue, army imaging buying issue and IL 36D upgrade lacking armament issue all of which are years old but CAG report came after some years), the report comes in the wake when US completely took off the support off the programme.

Definitely nothing was certain till then and the whole developement of LCA will proceed further or not was a matter of speculation. All the issues raised due to sanction was solved in systematically and timely manner making the base of the whole report redundant to begin with.

All the data presented in the report are wrong/redundant because the programme took a total new way from 1998 to 2001.