Not Top Gun yet: China struggles with warplane engine technology

[Ewok6102]

Mike, people often lump the West together to imply the technological prowess of each Western country on equal level. That is far from the truth.

QFT.

 

[aliaselin]

I'd like to make some predictions for this year:

1. WZ-10 get finalization for design on Z-20 this year
2. WS-20 to be installed on Y-20
3. WS-15 appears either on IL-76 test bed or directly on J-20
4. WS-17(minshan) appears either on IL-76 test bed or directly on L-15B
5. WS-13 to enter phase of mass production
6. WZ-16 to be installed on Z-15
7. Next generation engine(T/W ration = 15) core engine to be tested

So this is why Lin Zuomin said there would a big breakthrough in 2016 for engine development.

Moreover, I'm curious about the progress of S3-2 engine, but little information has been revealed.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Engine tech is hard to mature. Even today with all that technology , Russian engines are NOW catching up with west. What makes us think its easy? China India all are struggling wit it.

Sorry IMO India is not in the same league.

India is terribly lacking behind those crucial strategic technologies which China has developed over the last 30 years to manufacture a really indigenous aero-engines.

Mind you. No developed aerospace nation will ever transfer those technologies to you although India may decide to buy 126 oops 36 Rafale. Not Russia or France!

By the time, India developed one by herself, it will be 2050. By then turbofan may be outdated! It may be cheaper to buy one from China then.

 

[Dash]

Dont put India with the same category with China. We are far ahead and better than India.

Your Kaveri havent even put to a LCA for testing while our engine has put to hundreds of plane for usage.

The whole wide world knows how many hundreds you have put to test. Please dont teach me that at least. While I respect level playing in all fields your stupidity puts your country to laughing stock.

="CAPRICORN-88, post: 8121858, member: 171210"] Sorry IMO India is not in the same league.

India is terribly lacking behind those crucial strategic technologies which China has developed over the last 30 years to manufacture a really indigenous aero-engines.

Mind you. No developed aerospace nation will ever transfer those technologies to you although India may decide to buy 126 oops 36 Rafale. Not Russia or France!

By the time, India developed one by herself, it will be 2050. By then turbofan may be outdated! It may be cheaper to buy one from China then.[/QUOTE]

Never mind.

 

[Beast]

The whole wide world knows how many hundreds you have put to test. Please dont teach me that at least. While I respect level playing in all fields your stupidity puts your country to laughing stock.

="CAPRICORN-88, post: 8121858, member: 171210"] Sorry IMO India is not in the same league.

India is terribly lacking behind those crucial strategic technologies which China has developed over the last 30 years to manufacture a really indigenous aero-engines.

Mind you. No developed aerospace nation will ever transfer those technologies to you although India may decide to buy 126 oops 36 Rafale. Not Russia or France!

By the time, India developed one by herself, it will be 2050. By then turbofan may be outdated! It may be cheaper to buy one from China then.

The real laughing stock is India. Everybody knows that.

 

[Dash]

The real laughing stock is India. Everybody knows that.

Enjoy your punny pride...aviation is not your field

 

[UKBengali]

Mike, people often lump the West together to imply the technological prowess of each Western country on equal level. That is far from the truth. The only country in the West truly at the top of the engine game is the USA with the F119 proven 5th gen, 180kn thrust, 9+ thrust-weight ratio in operation. EU current best engine is the EJ2000 (a development which your country Britain contributed the most) which match the USA's quality thrust-weight ratio and possible lifespan but no where near the power of the F-119. The only two other engines that match the F119's power is China's WS-15 and Russia's AL-41. Quality aside, both WS-15 and AL-41 still need time to prove.

France's best engine Snecma M88 is not in the same class as WS-15 or AL-41. In fact, it is not even in the same class as the 4th gen engine WS-10 or AL-31. But you can put them in the same level. So in general, all bias aside and make comparison on engine power and quality alone, these are a fair evaluation of engine development of the top country in aerospace.

US is at the top in both engine power and quality.
Russia is the 2nd best in engine power but lack the quality of the US's engine.
Britain is the 3rd best in engine power but match the US's engine quality.
China is the 4th best in engine power but lack the quality of the US's engine.
France is the 5th best in engine power but lack the quality of the US's engine.

Russia, China, France, in those respective order, that have similar engine quality.

Now, I'm talking of engine in CURRENT operation and not those in development so we exclude the power of Russia's AL41 and China's WS-15.

So really, to sum it up.

Engine Power.

1. USA
2. Russia
3. Britain
4. China
5. France

Engine Quality.

1. USA
2. Britain
3. Russia
4. China
5. France

Again, these are current engine in operation.


India has no business in competing for engine prowess but that is basically the same for every other world power, including Japan, SK, Israel, etc...

I agree with you say but France is 3rd in engine quality behind USA/UK that are joint 1st.

 

[Beast]

Enjoy your punny pride...aviation is not your field

Show me your kaveri engine power your LCA for even 10 seconds in the air and I will eat back my words.

 

[Dash]

Show me your kaveri engine power your LCA for even 10 seconds in the air and I will eat back my words.

It was not tested on LCA, and not that it doesn't have it in it. It couldn't get the desired dry thrust enough to be in a fighter plane.

We are working on it and we will eventually get there, may be after you but we will.

 

[asia2000]

Articles outdated China has already installed the WS-10 variants on the J-10, J-11, and J-15, its reaching full maturization. I'm skeptical of the anonymous sources but the only truth in the article is China does not have turbofans that can match the F-119 as of yet, the WS-15 will come.

WS-10 is only used on J10 and J15 during short period of testing. All deployed J10 and J15 are using Russian engines.

It was not tested on LCA, and not that it doesn't have it in it. It couldn't get the desired dry thrust enough to be in a fighter plane.

We are working on it and we will eventually get there, may be after you but we will.

Great attitude!

 

[My-Analogous]

WS-10 is only used on J10 and J15 during short period of testing. All deployed J10 and J15 are using Russian engines.


Great attitude!

https://defence.pk/threads/ws-10a-has-finished-the-testing-on-j-10b.376290/

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Never mind.

IMO China continue to use the Russian AL-31F today for of a couple reasons.

1. China has ordered quite a number of AL-31F and it would be a waste not to use them. Basically a very Asian mentality. If one were to observed the AL-31 powerplant used in J-10A or J-10B today, they appeared to be reconditioned or refurbished unit and the brand new one.

2. As an interim measure until she succeeded in training enough personnel e.g. skilled machinists to mass manufacture the WS-10A series engine. Looks like the day is near. So far in record, no aircraft powered by the WS-10A has crashed.

3. Following the announcement of a breakthrough way back in 2009 and a further infusion of billions of dollars in research fund into aero-engine technology, IMO the WS-10A has already fully tested and matured.

The world's largest 80,000 tons Press Forge home-designed and indigenously built all by China herself. (Construction started in 2007 and was completed in 2012).

This is only one of the crucial technologies I am talking about that is presently owned by 4 nations USA, Russia, France and China e.g. How many of us is aware that it is Russia that is contracted to forge a very important component for Airbus -the front landing gear. Now we know why cracks are appearing in India's LCA (An extremely light aircraft) front landing gear.

IMO I believe the state-of-art manufacturing in China aviation industries exceeds those from Russia today.

Read this article written by Jane's way back in 2010.

The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has
developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russianmade
Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign
policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its
operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight
hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of
Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the
PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at
the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the
Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special
derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the
Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the
J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF
Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a
specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of
what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during
the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province,
employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation
within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several
years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development
programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for
achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the
plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2
million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a
decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were
presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was
taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to
completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the
overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent
decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased
the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the
Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russianmade
engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this
is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during
the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of
time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or
better than anything designed here in Russia".

 

[Beast]

It was not tested on LCA, and not that it doesn't have it in it. It couldn't get the desired dry thrust enough to be in a fighter plane.

We are working on it and we will eventually get there, may be after you but we will.

You dont even have a modern turbofan tested and used. I am correct to state China is miles ahead of Indian in aviation aeroengine and we are not the same league. Even France M84 weight to thrust ratio(7.8 :1) is slightly inferior to WS-10(8:1) spec.

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/04/0...ds-the-world-in-aircraft-thrust-weight-ratio/

The engine is proven operational when it intercept USN P-8 around SCS w/o flaw

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10a-jet-engines.html#.Vq66b7J97IU

 

[Dash]

You dont even have a modern turbofan tested and used. I am correcwo state China is miles ahead of Indian in aviation aeroengine and we are not the same league. Even France M84 weight to thrust ratio(7.8 :1) is slightly inferior to WS-10(8:1) spec.

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/04/0...ds-the-world-in-aircraft-thrust-weight-ratio/

The engine is proven operational when it intercept USN P-8 around SCS w/o flaw

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10a-jet-engines.html#.Vq66b7J97IU

There u go with ur uninformed post. It has been tested on board IL76 twice including high altitude tests. It was used as one of the engines for that plane.

But like I said, you will blow your trumpet saying you are miles ahead but that doesn't mean we are lagging far behind. And I know what is the status of your engine. And if you know something about engines then you must know that higher thrust doesn't mean higher thrust to weight ratio. So Rafale has enough TWR for it.

 

[BoQ77]

The engine is proven operational when it intercept USN P-8 around SCS w/o flaw

You could do that with an old J-8 w/o flaw.
I mean it's not the hardest task to intercept the P-8 basically a Boeing 737

Wish you could share us photos/clips of J11 take off with heavy payload.

Any statement on J-11 ability to take off with 8 ton of ammunition and full fuel tanks ( 9600 kgs )?