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Not Top Gun yet: China struggles with warplane engine technology

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Thu Jan 28, 2016 | 10:33 PM EST
China struggles with warplane engine technology.
REUTERS




SINGAPORE (Reuters) - China has built a potent military machine over the past 30 years but is struggling to develop advanced engines that would allow its warplanes to match Western fighters in combat, foreign and Chinese industry sources said.

The country's engine technology lags that of United Technologies unit (UTX.N) Pratt & Whitney, General Electric (GE.N) and Rolls-Royce (RR.L), said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

China's Defence Ministry, in a brief statement to Reuters, said there was a "definite gap" between Chinese military technology and some developed countries, adding Beijing would continue to strengthen its armed forces.

Western restrictions on arms exports to China prohibit the sale of Western engines for military use, forcing China to rely on homegrown designs or engines Russia has agreed to sell.

"Chinese engine-makers face a multitude of problems," said Michael Raska, assistant professor in the Military Transformations Programme at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.

Among the issues, China's J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters cannot super-cruise, or fly at supersonic speeds like their closest rivals, Lockheed Martin's (LMT.N) F-22 and F-35 stealth planes, without using after-burners, said two industry sources who follow Beijing's military programs closely.

After-burners remove a warplane's stealthiness, a capability that allows them to escape radar detection.

Even the warplane engine that experts consider to be China's best has reliability issues, said the sources, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.



SOUTH CHINA SEA

A Chinese military expert, who has knowledge of the government's defense policy but who declined to be identified, said Chinese fighter jets could not perform as well as American warplanes because of inferior engine technology.

That puts China at a disadvantage should its warplanes be pitted against U.S. jet fighters or those from security ally Japan in Asia's disputed waters, the industry sources and security experts said.

Chinese warplanes are likely to come into increasing contact with U.S. fighters over the South China Sea in the years ahead after Beijing conducted its first test flights this month to one of three island runways it is building in the contested Spratly archipelago, security experts said.

In any conflict, China would likely rely on sheer numbers of fighters as well as a growing arsenal of sophisticated missiles that can be launched from warships or land, they added.

o be sure, China has made warplane engine development a priority in recent years, sources said.

The Shanghai-based Galleon group, which provides consulting services to the aerospace industry, estimates Beijing will spend $300 billion over the next 20 years on civil and military aircraft engine programs.

Some sources said China had hired several foreign engineers and former air force personnel to work on engine development, although this could not be independently confirmed. The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment.

"In 20 to 30 years time, given the amount of work they have done and the effort they are putting into it, they should have a viable military engine," said Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor at Flightglobal, an industry publication.



ENGINE MAKERS MERGED

China first manufactured warplanes under license from Russia in the 1950s. Its indigenous fighter jet program kicked into full swing in the 1980s.

The country's best warplane engine is the WS-10A Taihang, made by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, a subsidiary of China's biggest state-owned aerospace and defense company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the sources said.

In development since the late 1980s, Chinese state media reports say more than 250 have been fitted to some fourth-generation J-10s and J-11s.

But the engines don't produce enough thrust, or power, and need frequent repairs, added the sources.

"They are trying to improve the Taihang, but reliability is a major problem," said one source.

AVIC did not respond to a request for comment while Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute could not be reached for comment.

In October, state media said three engine makers owned by AVIC would merge into one firm.

China will do more to integrate other engine-making firms in the coming years, said a Chinese source in the country's aerospace industry.

This would help coordination across civilian and military engine research and development and production, said the source.

The Defence Ministry declined to comment.

To cover gaps for now, China has fitted Russian engines on many of its warplanes.

In November, China held talks with Russian state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer United Engine Corp on the possible joint development and production of military engines at the same time it signed a deal to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, one of Moscow's most advanced warplanes.

The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment on the status of the discussions.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0V7083
 
If the engine R&D is moved to Beijing or Shanghai, I am sure it will attract more talented people. This merging seems working toward that direction.
 
With all this efforts and money being invested in the jet engine development China will come out with a world class jet engine with the required design and thrust in the near future. Later on R&D will pave way for more clean sheet designs to power the next generations of planes.
 
Not Top Gun yet: China struggles with warplane engine technology


Foreign visitors stand next to a model of the J-31 stealth fighter at the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) booth at the Aviation Expo China 2015 in Beijing, China, in this September 16, 2015 file photo.

China has built a potent military machine over the past 30 years but is struggling to develop advanced engines that would allow its warplanes to match Western fighters in combat, foreign and Chinese industry sources said.

The country's engine technology lags that of United Technologies unit Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and Rolls-Royce, said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

China's Defence Ministry, in a brief statement to Reuters, said there was a "definite gap" between Chinese military technology and some developed countries, adding Beijing would continue to strengthen its armed forces.

Western restrictions on arms exports to China prohibit the sale of Western engines for military use, forcing China to rely on homegrown designs or engines Russia has agreed to sell.

"Chinese engine-makers face a multitude of problems," said Michael Raska, assistant professor in the Military Transformations Programme at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.

Among the issues, China's J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters cannot super-cruise, or fly at supersonic speeds like their closest rivals, Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35 stealth planes, without using after-burners, said two industry sources who follow Beijing's military programmes closely.

After-burners remove a warplane's stealthiness, a capability that allows them to escape radar detection.

Even the warplane engine that experts consider to be China's best has reliability issues, said the sources, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.



SOUTH CHINA SEA

A Chinese military expert, who has knowledge of the government's defence policy but who declined to be identified, said Chinese fighter jets could not perform as well as American warplanes because of inferior engine technology.

That puts China at a disadvantage should its warplanes be pitted against U.S. jet fighters or those from security ally Japan in Asia's disputed waters, the industry sources and security experts said.

Chinese warplanes are likely to come into increasing contact with U.S. fighters over the South China Sea in the years ahead after Beijing conducted its first test flights this month to one of three island runways it is building in the contested Spratly archipelago, security experts said.

In any conflict, China would likely rely on sheer numbers of fighters as well as a growing arsenal of sophisticated missiles that can be launched from warships or land, they added.

To be sure, China has made warplane engine development a priority in recent years, sources said.

The Shanghai-based Galleon group, which provides consulting services to the aerospace industry, estimates Beijing will spend $300 billion (£209 billion) over the next 20 years on civil and military aircraft engine programmes.

Some sources said China had hired several foreign engineers and former air force personnel to work on engine development, although this could not be independently confirmed. The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment.

"In 20 to 30 years time, given the amount of work they have done and the effort they are putting into it, they should have a viable military engine," said Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor at Flightglobal, an industry publication.



ENGINE MAKERS MERGED

China first manufactured warplanes under licence from Russia in the 1950s. Its indigenous fighter jet programme kicked into full swing in the 1980s.

The country's best warplane engine is the WS-10A Taihang, made by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, a subsidiary of China's biggest state-owned aerospace and defence company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the sources said.

In development since the late 1980s, Chinese state media reports say more than 250 have been fitted to some fourth-generation J-10s and J-11s.

But the engines don't produce enough thrust, or power, and need frequent repairs, added the sources.

"They are trying to improve the Taihang, but reliability is a major problem," said one source.

AVIC did not respond to a request for comment while Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute could not be reached for comment.

In October, state media said three engine makers owned by AVIC would merge into one firm.

China will do more to integrate other engine-making firms in the coming years, said a Chinese source in the country's aerospace industry.

This would help coordination across civilian and military engine research and development and production, said the source.

The Defence Ministry declined to comment.

To cover gaps for now, China has fitted Russian engines on many of its warplanes.

In November, China held talks with Russian state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer United Engine Corp on the possible joint development and production of military engines at the same time it signed a deal to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, one of Moscow's most advanced warplanes.

The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment on the status of the discussions.



(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in Beijing; Editing by Dean Yates)


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-china-military-engines-idUKKCN0V62TR
 
Yet we know that China is catching up very quickly. They have the engineers, they have the material, they have the money. It's just a matter of time for China to reach Western European technology level. The 21st century belongs to them.
 
China need more collaboration from Russia .................... they can buy the tech for RD33 and AL31 series engine under TOT agreement............. Russia may show reluctance but China can offer some big money..............
But I doubt about power plants of J20 and J31 ................ Chinese engines will be capable enough to power 4thG aircraft series ........... but for 5thG aircrafts........... they need some high tech engine stuff........... with low radar signature, high thrust, and ability to super cruise............... Thrust vectoring may not be crucial but it will be good enough.............
 
China need more collaboration from Russia .................... they can buy the tech for RD33 and AL31 series engine under TOT agreement............. Russia may show reluctance but China can offer some big money..............
But I doubt about power plants of J20 and J31 ................ Chinese engines will be capable enough to power 4thG aircraft series ........... but for 5thG aircrafts........... they need some high tech engine stuff........... with low radar signature, high thrust, and ability to super cruise............... Thrust vectoring may not be crucial but it will be good enough.............
There is something money cannot buy. For everything, there is always <your favorite card>. :)
 
There is something money cannot buy. For everything, there is always <your favorite card>. :)
Why Russia simply don;t help China in this regard?
I return they can demand some geo political advantage or some economic leverage.............???
 
Why Russia simply don;t help China in this regard?
I return they can demand some geo political advantage or some economic leverage.............???
This is the national secret. Something you don't trade unless in a life-death situation.
 
Why Russia simply don;t help China in this regard?
I return they can demand some geo political advantage or some economic leverage.............???
Russia is selling engines to China. Otherwise, J10/J15 won't be able to fly. Why are you saying they are not helping?
 
Why Russia simply don;t help China in this regard?
I return they can demand some geo political advantage or some economic leverage.............???
If Russia does so, it means it wants to kill its military aviation industry! Russia,France, US who have the best engine tech, will sale your everything but not the engine tech when it comes to aircraft....
 
China need more collaboration from Russia .................... they can buy the tech for RD33 and AL31 series engine under TOT agreement............. Russia may show reluctance but China can offer some big money..............
But I doubt about power plants of J20 and J31 ................ Chinese engines will be capable enough to power 4thG aircraft series ........... but for 5thG aircrafts........... they need some high tech engine stuff........... with low radar signature, high thrust, and ability to super cruise............... Thrust vectoring may not be crucial but it will be good enough.............

Chinese shortage is material science...some of their steel is not even approved for buildings in Saudi..
 
Chinese shortage is material science...some of their steel is not even approved for buildings in Saudi..
Hmmmmmmm
But they have some awesome 3D printing technology ................. and with out sound knowledge of Advance Materials........... having such tech is not possible.................
 
Hmmmmmmm
But they have some awesome 3D printing technology ................. and with out sound knowledge of Advance Materials........... having such tech is not possible.................

You can make a 3D printer at home...having worked with these machines for few years..I tell you they are not that much exotic rocket science...basically anyone who understands the workings of HP ink jet printers can transform the know how to build a 3D printer relatively easy..
 
You can make a 3D printer at home...having worked with these machines for few years..I tell you they are not that much exotic rocket science...basically anyone who understands the workings of HP ink jet printers can transform the know how to build a 3D printer relatively easy..
I am not talking about such ''low'' level 3D printer.............

I am talking about one which can construct an entire building as one piece........... they can even 3D print aircraft (as per their claim)........... and this is some serious stuff.............

have a look

http://inhabitat.com/chinese-company-builds-3d-printed-villa-in-less-than-3-hours/

also

http://3dprint.com/82169/3d-printed-aircraft-parts/
 

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