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No force can stop the desire for freedom, says Dalai Lama

Er.....if i recall correctly,Dalai Lama isn't seeking for freedom of Tibet.

ontopic
A question to the Chinese members

Can't Tibet be given some level of autonomy like Hong Kong ?

While you are at it why not organize some Tibetan cultural programs or study of it?Afterall isn't their fear about China wiping out their culture.

Just give them an assurance their culture is safe.
Bombensturm, because you, I believe you did not mean to promote or cause trouble. So I explained that China has organized the study and protection of Tibetan culture, if you really care to know more details, otherwise it will once again be misled by anti-China voices.

As for autonomy, Tibet has been, just not the DL on behalf of those slave owners, they left too long, did not understand Tibet, will enjoy the luxury of life, there is no management ability, you look at their performance in India, will know that.
 
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He seems like one good old lama lol:whistle:
2010092309141789_240.jpg
 
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I think there is just a general misconception about what China's priorities are. It isn't to crush all freedom and independent thought, contrary to what the ill-informed think. The media control, "repressive practices", the over-reactions over Tibet are all means to a end and not ends on to themselves and that end is stability and societal harmony.

You have to understand the trauma that China went through during the first half of the 20th century. There was no law and there was no government. War between war lords took more lives than one can imagine. There are horrifying stories of how war lord armies went into a village and strung all the woman of the village up with barbwire through their breasts. Many Chinese will do anything to prevent that from happening again and many Chinese including myself are willing to take the trade off of less personal freedom for stability and the absence of chaos.

this is true. there are about 5% of chinese people, that if not kept under the toughest control and beaten into submission every single day of their lives, will ruin life for the other 95%. these people are rarely the poorest off, though. they are usually lower middle class, around 30-35 years old, that have lived in the city for about 10 years. examples include those that support the west like mad dogs.

if they became leaders, they'll be worse than hitler, they'd be like the saddam husseins or robert mugabes of china. currently, the government, public opinion, and social pressure keep them in line, but in times of chaos is when they explode into the open, ready to torture and kill until the next stable government comes in and kills them.
 
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this is true. there are about 5% of chinese people, that if not kept under the toughest control and beaten into submission every single day of their lives, will ruin life for the other 95%. these people are rarely the poorest off, though. they are usually lower middle class, around 30-35 years old, that have lived in the city for about 10 years. examples include those that support the west like mad dogs.

if they became leaders, they'll be worse than hitler, they'd be like the saddam husseins or robert mugabes of china. currently, the government, public opinion, and social pressure keep them in line, but in times of chaos is when they explode into the open, ready to torture and kill until the next stable government comes in and kills them.

A lot of the rabid pro-West people would've been (some of them actually are) Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution.
 
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A question to the Chinese members

Can't Tibet be given some level of autonomy like Hong Kong?

That could certainly happen, if the CCP thinks that there is no danger of Tibet trying to separate from China.

Today, there are still separatist sentiments in Tibet, so I don't think the CCP will give them regional autonomy, for the next few years at least. The CCP worries that granting them autonomy (when Tibet is not completely stable) will further increase separatist sentiments.

On topic, even the Dalai Lama himself does not advocate Tibetan independence. I believe that things in western China will improve, as economic development takes place.
 
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Dalai Lama has been a chameleon all his life, being all things to all people. For anyone to buy his "no independence" nonsense is tantamount to believeing the magic of snake oil. Should we judge him by his words or his deeds?
 
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A lot of the rabid pro-West people would've been (some of them actually are) Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution.

I see little difference between the fanaticism and ignorant mindset of the Red Guard and the Pro-democracy demonstrators.

this is true. there are about 5% of chinese people, that if not kept under the toughest control and beaten into submission every single day of their lives, will ruin life for the other 95%. these people are rarely the poorest off, though. they are usually lower middle class, around 30-35 years old, that have lived in the city for about 10 years. examples include those that support the west like mad dogs.

if they became leaders, they'll be worse than hitler, they'd be like the saddam husseins or robert mugabes of china. currently, the government, public opinion, and social pressure keep them in line, but in times of chaos is when they explode into the open, ready to torture and kill until the next stable government comes in and kills them.


This interview shows what kind of people the student leaders were, and it made me feel physically sick.



Chai Ling had confided to an American journalist: “what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, for the moment when the government has no choice but to brazenly butcher the people… I can't say all this to my fellow students. I can't tell them straight out that we must use our blood and our lives to call on the people to rise up.”

“Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?” asked the interviewer.

“No, I won’t.”

“Why?”

“… I want to live.”

That explained why, in the wee hours of June 4th, when troops moved in from the outskirts of Beijing to Tiananmen, shooting at civilians blocking the roads along the way, Chai Ling insisted that students stay at the Square.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8635



Chai Ling (Chinese: 柴玲; Pinyin: Chái Líng) (born April 15, 1966 in Rizhao, Shandong Province, People's Republic of China) was one of the student leaders in the Tian'anmen Square protests of 1989. Chai Ling emerged as one of the student leaders on the Square at a later stage of the movement. She has been nominated twice for the Nobel Peace Prize[1][2]. Chai Ling along with other student leaders such as Wuerkaixi and Wang Dan "led six weeks of protests." The movement was the biggest threat ever to Communist Party rule."[2]


If these are the people the west admires and want to rule China, they should absolute have NO say in how we run our country. The Nobel peace prize is a joke.
 
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And it just boggles my mind that people here are so quick to condemn without even knowing or caring about the facts.
 
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If you really are looking for info and somehow your clicking finger is broken. Here is the source I posted from the quote.

From the “Tiananmen Massacre” to the "Lhasa Protests”

As I read and watched the media coverage of Tibetan “protesters” unleashing their “pent-up” anger against Han civilians in Lhasa on March 14, 2008, I sensed sympathetic sentiment from the reporters who portrayed violent acts as a “test” to “Beijing’s grip” on Tibet, while the victims were almost invisible in their coverage.

Unbalanced coverage, I thought. I looked online and found eyewitness accounts by Western tourists. They described “mobs” gone “crazy” in “riots”, and showed videos of civilians being chased, stoned and beaten. I felt sympathy to the victims.

Then, I came upon a video clip by CTV, a national television network in Canada, showing dark-faced Nepalese police beating Tibetan demonstrators with sticks while a Tibetan talked about Chinese suppressing protests. I felt such grafting a gross fabrication.

It didn’t appear to be a mistake as I found similar fabrications in other mainstream newspapers and TV programs in the West. I began to wonder: Is there a Western conspiracy to smear China? Or this is merely a reflection of the West’s sentiment towards the Tibet issue?

Either way, my trust in the Western media’s fairness and objectiveness began to waver. I wonder if I had been deceived by its report of the “Tiananmen Massacre”.

While a graduate student at the University of Toronto, I coordinated, immediately after the “Massacre”, the campaign to fax reports with pictures of the killed in Beijing to other parts of China, to tell people the truth.

My parents in China had warned me to not participate in any political movement since my father had been jailed for four years without a trial during the Cultural Revolution and everyone in my family had been implicated.

But I would not return to China. I had been driven out of China by the government’s declaration to the world that “homosexuals do not exist in China.”

For my fellow students “massacred” on Tiananmen Square, I must do my part to spread the Western media’s report of truth to other parts of China, safely from Canada.

One of our fax receivers faxed back to us to thank us for telling the truth. Then, they told us to stop faxing because guards had been posted by fax machines. The Chinese government maintained that no one died on Tiananmen Square.

I disbelieved it.

Now, after witnessing the distorted coverage of the Lhasa riots by the Western media, I wasn’t so sure if the “Massacre” that had been told to me was true.

I researched online and found a 20-segment video documentary in Chinese. It chronicled the Tiananmen student movement with interviews of the student leaders and other leading figures on Tiananmen Square. It seemed credible. It showed facts that I did not know before.

Some hunger strikers actually ate. I had seen a Chinese government’s video showing some hunger strikers including the student leader Wuer Kaixi eating in a restaurant, and I had dismissed it, partly because I hadn’t seen it in the Western media’s coverage.

There was no democracy on Tiananmen Square. Whoever controlled the loud speaker spoke on behalf of everyone. Factions of students fought to control the loud speaker. There were almost three to four attempted coups daily.

After the government made one after another concession to the students’ demands, on May 27, 1989, a coalition of the student leaders and supporting workers and intellectuals agreed that the students would leave Tiananmen Square on May 30 so that they could, as student leader Wang Dang had long advocated, continue to pursue grassroots democracy on campuses.

But radical student leaders changed their minds and decided to stay on the Square. One of them was Commander-in-Chief Chai Ling.

Chai Ling had confided to an American journalist: “what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed, for the moment when the government has no choice but to brazenly butcher the people… I can't say all this to my fellow students. I can't tell them straight out that we must use our blood and our lives to call on the people to rise up.”

“Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?” asked the interviewer.

“No, I won’t.”

“Why?”

“… I want to live.”

That explained why, in the wee hours of June 4th, when troops moved in from the outskirts of Beijing to Tiananmen, shooting at civilians blocking the roads along the way, Chai Ling insisted that students stay at the Square.

However, a popular Taiwan-born singer Hou Dejian who had been on hunger strike on the Square to show solidarity with the students since June 2, brokered a permission at about 4:30am through a military commander to allow students to leave peacefully.

“We filed out of the Square from the southeast corner. I was near the end of the line,” said Liang Xiaoyan, a lecturer of Beijing Foreign Studies University.

(The following day, I began coordinating the fax campaign to tell people in other parts of China about “Tiananmen Massacre”.)

“Some people said that two hundred died in the Square and other claimed that two thousand died. There were also stories of tanks running over students who were trying to leave.” Hou Dejian said in the interview, “I have to say that I did not see any of that. I don't know where those people did. I myself was in the Square until six thirty in the morning.”

“I kept thinking,” he continued, “Are we going to use lies to attack an enemy who lies?”

Tiananmen Massacre never happened! My heart pounded. I have faxed lies to China. No, this can’t be true. This documentary, in Chinese, is probably made by the Chinese government.

At the end of the film, I saw the credits:

Produced and edited by

Richard Gordon

Carma Hinton

I felt that I would be dealing with my conscience for the rest of my life. Yes, many people died in Beijing on June 4th. A former classmate of mine saw a man falling off his bicycle after being shot when all of them were running away from Tiananmen Square. But there was no massacre on the Square.

I began to see the wisdom in my parents’ warning. True, in any political confrontation, the opposing sides would be tempted to use lies to win justice, and naïve participants would be caught in between. To blindly believe in either side would be dangerous.

I wondered what if the Western media had reported the Tiananmen student movement with a critical eye, instead of with romanticized sympathy. Perhaps the Chinese students on Tiananmen Square, who had admired the West’s democracy so much to have erected the “Liberty of Goddess” statue on Tiananmen Square, might have followed the more practical voices of Wang Dang and Hou Dejian to leave Tiananmen Square and continue their democratic movement at grassroots level on campuses. The bloodshed on the roads leading to Tiananmen Square on June 4th, perhaps, could have been avoided.

Western media has a powerful influence on those who long for democracy. Such was the case in Tiananmen in 1989. Mainstream media is powerful in influencing the underdogs in Western societies. Such was also the case in 1989. I, like many Chinese students in the West, felt a boost of self-worth when the media gave our demonstrations supporting students in Beijing affirmative coverage. Not that long ago, we had felt being looked down upon because of our smelly food, poor English and dirty Chinatowns. Suddenly, we were looked at with respect.

It is not too late for the media to report on Tibet issues with a critical eye, which will ultimately benefit the Tibetans, the Han Chinese, the Olympics and the world.
 
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It surprises me how otherwise well-educated and worldly Chinese refuse to accept what has happened, and continues to happen in Tibet. Sure, Tibetan society was a medieval serfdom and there was a lot of scope, and indeed, need for reforms and development in Tibet.
And if your country gets invaded, one can be expected to offer some form of resistance as the Tibetans did-including their leader.

From 1959 onwards, China has been systematically diluting and sabotaging Tibetan culture. Dharamsala is full of Tibetan refugees, and I have heard many personal accounts of brutalities that would make Kashmir look like a five-year old's birthday party. Many, many Tibetans have died and many monuments have been destroyed.

It is China's century now, so nobody really cares about Tibet any more, except for the Richard Gere types....personally, I don't think that Tibetan independence is possible or even desirable- all that is needed is a loosening of the cultural stranglehold, the presence of a reasonably free media and the freedom to practice their faith (which includes non-interference in selection of reincarations)
 
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It surprises me how otherwise well-educated and worldly Chinese refuse to accept what has happened, and continues to happen in Tibet. Sure, Tibetan society was a medieval serfdom and there was a lot of scope, and indeed, need for reforms and development in Tibet.
And if your country gets invaded, one can be expected to offer some form of resistance as the Tibetans did-including their leader.

From 1959 onwards, China has been systematically diluting and sabotaging Tibetan culture. Dharamsala is full of Tibetan refugees, and I have heard many personal accounts of brutalities that would make Kashmir look like a five-year old's birthday party. Many, many Tibetans have died and many monuments have been destroyed.

It is China's century now, so nobody really cares about Tibet any more, except for the Richard Gere types....personally, I don't think that Tibetan independence is possible or even desirable- all that is needed is a loosening of the cultural stranglehold, the presence of a reasonably free media and the freedom to practice their faith (which includes non-interference in selection of reincarations)

Would also like to say how many lies? In addition to the United States and India supported the guerrillas, no one died. The systematic destruction of Tibetan culture? Have you been to Tibet yet?
 
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It surprises me how otherwise well-educated and worldly Chinese refuse to accept what has happened, and continues to happen in Tibet. Sure, Tibetan society was a medieval serfdom and there was a lot of scope, and indeed, need for reforms and development in Tibet.
And if your country gets invaded, one can be expected to offer some form of resistance as the Tibetans did-including their leader.

From 1959 onwards, China has been systematically diluting and sabotaging Tibetan culture. Dharamsala is full of Tibetan refugees, and I have heard many personal accounts of brutalities that would make Kashmir look like a five-year old's birthday party. Many, many Tibetans have died and many monuments have been destroyed.

It is China's century now, so nobody really cares about Tibet any more, except for the Richard Gere types....personally, I don't think that Tibetan independence is possible or even desirable- all that is needed is a loosening of the cultural stranglehold, the presence of a reasonably free media and the freedom to practice their faith (which includes non-interference in selection of reincarations)

Where did I say I refuse to accept those things as fact? The crack down in 1959 was brutal, Tibetan culture continues to be diluted to the point it will become Buddhist Disney land for Han Tourists, Demographics is being actively manipulated by the government.

Please read carefully my posts here


China would love to grant cultural and a political autonomy (a small price) for an assurance that Tibetans won't clamour for independence. In fact Tibet was ruled by the DL and semi-autonomous right into the 50's even after the PLA and the CCP took over. But the DL reneged on the agreement and that's why he and his lamas got kicked out. Even after relations soured, the DL and his government were offered conditions for coming back, it was they who refused at the time. DL thought China was going to implode and he'd get a better deal after this happened from the Americans or Indians and he'll have his chance to take over Tibet again as the sole ruler.

This was the choice he made and this is the road they chose, and so with the way it is going right now, I see no reason for the iron fist to lift and for the government to systemically change the demographics and suppress culture.

To quote the bible "We Reap What We Sow (6:7-9 Galatians).

and here

I think there is just a general misconception about what China's priorities are. It isn't to crush all freedom and independent thought, contrary to what the ill-informed think. The media control, "repressive practices", the over-reactions over Tibet are all means to a end and not ends on to themselves and that end is stability and societal harmony.

You have to understand the trauma that China went through during the first half of the 20th century. There was no law and there was no government. War between war lords took more lives than one can imagine. There are horrifying stories of how war lord armies went into a village and strung all the woman of the village up with barbwire through their breasts. Many Chinese will do anything to prevent that from happening again and many Chinese including myself are willing to take the trade off of less personal freedom for stability and the absence of chaos.

But if you want to compare Kashmir and Tibet. I know over 100 Kashmiri men, women and children have been killed by Indian security forces in the last three month, whereas Tibet has been repressed but peaceful.


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/297918
 
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looking for an argument?

Hey CardSharp do you still have that article by a Western Author who went to Tibet and concurs with the fact that the culture/religion has been well preserved? He is also anti-CCP so he is a great neutral source to use on this topic.
 
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Hey CardSharp do you still have that article by a Western Author who went to Tibet and concurs with the fact that the culture/religion has been well preserved? He is also anti-CCP so he is a great neutral source to use on this topic.

Nope, but I've might have posted somewhere here.
 
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