No country for brave men

[apophenia]

i know its a man made law for the most part.
and i support it if it is being handeled by the law enforcing agencies

So you did be OK if another non moslim nation start prosecuting moslims under their blasphemy laws' as moslims don't believe in the concept jesus being the "son of god" and about the holy trinity. saying the bible is corrupted.

 

[F86 Saber]

i dont have cable at home so dont know what happened in hamid mirs program. and frankly i dont go to any mullaz coz we've got a lot of neem mulla khatra eeman type mullas and very very few actual know it all mullaz

jihad is fighting against evil (through pen sword, etc)
could be against muslims.

kashmir = jihad
phalistine = jihad

stupid pathetic arse*** blowing themselves up in the markets and places aimlessly killing ppl= not so much

You either didn't understand my question or chose to ignore it conveniently. My question was, what is the definition of Jehad? What is Jehad to the Taliban is terrorism to us. Why is the definition of Jehad different when all are Muslims? Are there more than one definitions and which of them is right? And who decides which definition is right?

Similarly, what is the definition of Blasphemy? How many are there, which is right and who decides it?

I have always been afraid to go to a mosque in an unknown area because i don't want to be judged praying wrong because frankly speaking, i have no idea what is the difference between these sects and whats is considered right or wrong in them. How can these Mullahs who cannot agree amongst themselves on the "correct" way of offering Namaz give fatwa against someone accusing him of Blasphemy?

The problem is that since childhood, we have always been snubbed by our Mullahs even our parents for asking too many questions about Islam. This is because the when the Mullah's with limited knowledge do not know anything about something, they deem asking questions about it "Kufr" and this is why we regular Muslims do not have clear concepts of Islam.

 

[HAK]

You either didn't understand my question or chose to ignore it conveniently. My question was, what is the definition of Jehad? What is Jehad to the Taliban is terrorism to us. Why is the definition of Jehad different when all are Muslims? Are there more than one definitions and which of them is right? And who decides which definition is right?

Similarly, what is the definition of Blasphemy? How many are there, which is right and who decides it?

I have always been afraid to go to a mosque in an unknown area because i don't want to be judged praying wrong because frankly speaking, i have no idea what is the difference between these sects and whats is considered right or wrong in them. How can these Mullahs who cannot agree amongst themselves on the "correct" way of offering Namaz give fatwa against someone accusing him of Blasphemy?

The problem is that since childhood, we have always been snubbed by our Mullahs even our parents for asking too many questions about Islam. This is because the when the Mullah's with limited knowledge do not know anything about something, they deem asking questions about it "Kufr" and this is why we regular Muslims do not have clear concepts of Islam.

In todays time a persons defination of jihad and blasphemy depends which mulla they go to and which TV channels/programs you watch. I went to a mardissa twice a day every day for a good part of my life and was given answers to most question i had. I am one of the very few fortunate ppl that went to ppl who used The Quran and Bukhari Shareef and famous old tafseers to explain things and didnt impose their personal point of views. If something had multiple meanings and explanations i was given all and was allowed to some extent to form my own opinion through Q&A

Your question was/seemed retorical and didnt demand any answer, but i did tried to answer your queation

 

[HAK]

So you did be OK if another non moslim nation start prosecuting moslims under their blasphemy laws' as moslims don't believe in the concept jesus being the "son of god" and about the holy trinity. saying the bible is corrupted.

Well brother i wont lie to you, insult Jesus AS, insult Muhammed (PBUH) or any other Prophet it one and the same thing, blasphamy is not limited to Muhammad PBUH. Jesus is not son of god, and bible is not the real deal, yes part of it might be orignal, i know this but i dont rub it in every christians face. and i have seen a lot of documentries that tell me that christians debate these issues too.

and i read in a artical the punishment of blasphamy in bible is death (sangsar to be specific) too!
i also read somewhere when a christine delegation came to visit Muhammad PBUH, he allowed them to worship inside Masjid-e-Nabavi. dont have proof of the above two points though

But what it comes down to in the end is, i think, bieng sensitive to other people's belives. if you act like an insensitive git you deserve to get your *** kicked.

 

[F86 Saber]

In todays time a persons defination of jihad and blasphemy depends which mulla they go to and which TV channels/programs you watch. I went to a mardissa twice a day every day for a good part of my life and was given answers to most question i had. I am one of the very few fortunate ppl that went to ppl who used The Quran and Bukhari Shareef and famous old tafseers to explain things and didnt impose their personal point of views. If something had multiple meanings and explanations i was given all and was allowed to some extent to form my own opinion through Q&A

Your question was/seemed retorical and didnt demand any answer, but i did tried to answer your queation

Its good to know that you are well versed with knowledge of Islam. So can you tell me the right definition of Jehad? Why was it Jehad when Hazrat Abu Bakar (R.A) sent his army to correct the people who refused to give Zakat and were conspiring against the state after Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W) passed away? or is Jehad what these Militants are doing against Pakistan Army and Gov.? Both instances were Muslims against Muslims?

Now i would like you to define Blasphemy and tell me how can calling a man made law as "misused" be deemed as Blasphemy?

Were you told by your Mudrassa to kill anyone who had a different opinion than yours? If not, than why are you supporting Qadri for what he did?

 

[freeman]

Thats the whole problem with religion, it makes people stupid.

I read it in a book so I must kill the non believers. Some some mullah said this so I will blow myself up and kill innocent people.

Interpretations on religion are never going to bring consensus. You are never going to agree to somebody else's ideology. Why? Because some guy said so. FFS.

I could provide you evidence right now thats proves evolution is a fact but a religious person would never buy that. Why? Coz some dude with a hat on told me something else.

Torah, Bible and the Koran are all full of facts as science saw it back in the day. Flat Earth, cave man cosmology, magic and monsters. So full of holes but so adored.

Pakistan's choice is a separation of power and state and take full control of its borders or continue down the path to destruction.

 

[apophenia]

Well brother i wont lie to you, insult Jesus AS, insult Muhammed (PBUH) or any other Prophet it one and the same thing, blasphamy is not limited to Muhammad PBUH. Jesus is not son of god, and bible is not the real deal, yes part of it might be orignal, i know this but i dont rub it in every christians face. and i have seen a lot of documentries that tell me that christians debate these issues too.

so why debating a man made law and false believe is problem to general public.

and i read in a artical the punishment of blasphamy in bible is death (sangsar to be specific) too!
i also read somewhere when a christine delegation came to visit Muhammad PBUH, he allowed them to worship inside Masjid-e-Nabavi. dont have proof of the above two points though

You are correct on both accounts, In bible leviticus 24:14,16, 23 refers to Blasphemy and its punishment. But do you know what Islamic law has to say on the subject because i know the biggest school of Islamic jurisprudence is against capital punishment against Blasphemy.

But what it comes down to in the end is, i think, bieng sensitive to other people's belives. if you act like an insensitive git you deserve to get your *** kicked.

Agreed, a state can define a law based on the interest of majority but when that law is being abused then it should be checked inside out. Pakistan is not a wild west, where any tom, dick and harry can put a bounty on someone head and people start working towards claiming that.

 

[F86 Saber]

Torah, Bible and the Koran are all full of facts as science saw it back in the day. Flat Earth, cave man cosmology, magic and monsters. So full of holes but so adored.

Although it will be a completely different debate, but the Holy Quran described more than 1400 years ago the facts that science has only recently proved. For example the rotation of earth and sun, how rain falls, the concept of gravity and much more. Also the life and Sunnah of our Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) makes us follow a lot of things that are actually proven beneficial by science like drinking water while sitting etc. The only problem arises with the interpretation. Allah has mentioned a lot of times in the Holy Quran that there are things that he has left for Humans to figure out. And Arabic being the language where there are different meanings of the same word or sentence, the responsibility of the Ulma is to explain the right meaning. Unfortunately, there aren't many of them.

 

[Ahmad]

It shows how much desparate you are. you are so week and afraid of debating and instead you swear like a kid, grow up man.

post reported.

 

[Awesome]

It shows how much desparate you are. you are so week and afraid of debating and instead you swear like a kid, grow up man.

post reported.

Were you driven to kill? If killing was the way to go, we'd be waging holy war against trolls... Just imagine that.

 

[HAK]

Its good to know that you are well versed with knowledge of Islam. So can you tell me the right definition of Jehad? Why was it Jehad when Hazrat Abu Bakar (R.A) sent his army to correct the people who refused to give Zakat and were conspiring against the state after Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W) passed away? or is Jehad what these Militants are doing against Pakistan Army and Gov.? Both instances were Muslims against Muslims?

Now i would like you to define Blasphemy and tell me how can calling a man made law as "misused" be deemed as Blasphemy?

Were you told by your Mudrassa to kill anyone who had a different opinion than yours? If not, than why are you supporting Qadri for what he did?

Jihad is fighting to uphold the values of Islam and i did say it can be against muslims.

What todays taliban are doing is the same zakat thing in a different way. Our religeon tells us to respect other religeons, the taliban dont, our religeon tells us to be educated, but taliban burn girld that go to school and blow the schools up.

and Islam only allows 'Khalifa-e-Waqt' to issue a call for jihad which in our case iz zardari (like it or not).

Two i did not say Salman Taseer committed blasphamy, i said, given the incomplete and corrupt knowledge of most of our trigger happy ppl it is wise to be very careful about waht you say.

and read my posts i never said what qadri did was right, i said if you are not careful things like this are bound to happen.

and I do agree that the law Gen. Zia made might have some loop holes that should be filled.

a common man doesnot understand the differenct between Blasphamy and Govt of Pakistan law.


Forget about the law and every thing and just think about one thing

If someone insults our Prophet PBUH infront of you, what will you do?
Shout freedom of speech slogan or kill that sob.
It might not be right, but its in our blood

 

[mehru]

self delete

 

[mehru]

Mods I really request you do not delete these posts... Perhaps it would teach Pakii here that its easy to write one line sentences about posters on a forum... and yes... the other person can do it also... See below Pakii

The guy in your avatar pic looks stoopid... Is that you?

Are you referring to this person?

For your information, this is not some stupid guy but a Pakistan national hero Fazal Mehmood. His services to our nation is unmatchable.

Fazal played his earliest first-class cricket for Northern India in the Ranji Trophy and strong performances there led to selection for India's inaugural tour of Australia in 1947–48. The partition of India prior to the tour led Fazal, a Muslim, to withdraw and choose Pakistan. He played a major role in first gaining Test status for the new nation and then establishing them as a Test match team.

Fazal Mahmood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[freeman]

I am more than happy to debate anything. The fact is Sabre those concepts were not dreamed up by Islamic scholars, those concepts predate Islam by a long way. I am trying to highlight the point to where Pakistan finds itself now.
Lets make one thing very clear here. It wasnt Qadri's fault he killed Salman Taseer. Qadri was brainwashed into doing it. Humans are inherently dumb animals that can be programmed into just about anything. If he doesnt know its wrong and has been groomed from birth how can it be his fault?
Was he wrong in doing it? That could only be ever debated by people of the books.

Dont ever get sucked in to debating of violence over somebodies ideology. You will never win that argument.
What is needed here is frank honest assessment. The huge scale of religious and tribal customs in Pakistan will never see eye to eye.

The Military needs to take over.

 

[Bang Galore]

A few articles that I thought should be read:

How Pakistan responded to Salman Taseer's assassination

Many in Pakistan felt that the governor's critique of blasphemy laws made his death, if not justifiable, understandable – and others went even further

Mohammed Hanif

Minutes after the murder of the governor of Pakistan's Punjab province Salman Taseer I saw a veteran Urdu columnist on a news channel. He was being what, in breaking news jargon, is called a "presenter's friend". "It is sad of course that this has happened but . . ."

I watched in the desperate hope that he wouldn't go into the ifs and buts of a brutal murder in the middle of Pakistan's capital. By this time we knew that Governor Taseer had been shot dead by a man in police uniform, probably one of his own police guards. The news ticker on screen informed us that the postmortem was under way. Later we would find out that he took 27 bullets. Not a single shot was fired by his security detail. It seemed too early for analysis, but the presenter's friend looked mildly smug, as if he had been mulling over arguments in his head long before the governor was shot. Although it wasn't required, the presenter egged him on. "But you see these are sensitive matters. He should have watched his words. He shouldn't have spoken so carelessly."

What were the late governor's words? I knew about his outspoken stance on the case of Asia Bibi, a Christian woman sentenced to death in a blasphemy case. In a village near Lahore, she served water to some Muslim women who refused to drink it from her glass. (This is quite a common expression of prejudice against lower-caste Christians in Pakistan.) They argued. A couple of days later, the village mullah filed a case saying she had insulted our Prophet.

I knew about his habit of making fun of his political foes, mostly through Twitter. But I still wanted to find out what his exact words were. If a billionaire who is also a governor and enjoys the highest level of security imaginable in Pakistan, can be shot for saying something, it's in everyone's interest to find out what those words were. I mean what if you were to utter those words by mistake?

The presenter chipped in helpfully. "Yes, he did call our blasphemy law a black law." Thoughtfully, the presenter's friend nodded his head in agreement.

Murder solved.

Only last month I had followed another blasphemy case. A pharmaceutical salesman walked into a well respected paediatrician's clinic in the city of Hyderabad and tried to sell him his company's medicines. The good doctor was in a bad mood. He tossed the salesman's visiting card in the bin. The very next day the salesman got together some local religious party activists and got a blasphemy case registered against the doctor.

How did the wily salesman manage to achieve that?

You see, Mohammed was part of salesman's name, as it is with half the male population of this country, including this scribe. So if you toss away a piece of paper with the word Mohammed written on it, you are obviously committing a blasphemy against our beloved Prophet. And there is a law against that in this country, introduced by Pakistan's military dictator and part-architect of the global jihad industry, General Ziaul Haq. The law is popularly known as the Namoos-e-Risalat Act; the law to protect the honour of the Prophet, and there is only one punishment: death by hanging. A number of non-Muslims as well as Muslims have been awarded this punishment, but nobody has actually been hanged yet. Higher courts usually overturn the punishment. In many cases a mob, or motivated gunmen, have carried out the punishment themselves.

Taseer had obviously not committed any blasphemy against the Holy Prophet or any namesake of his. As coverage progresses, politicians and pundits lectured the dead governor about the importance of choosing one's words carefully and respecting the sensitivities of one's fellow Muslims, especially if one lives in a Muslim country. A couple of liberal TV journalists almost stumbled over their words trying to explain that the governor had never committed any act that could be called blasphemous, he had only criticised a law. It is a man-made law, we were reminded by an occasional sensible voice. And the governor only criticised that man-made law, "because no true Muslim," every single politician, journalist, pundit was at pains to point out, "can even think of committing blasphemy against the Holy Prophet." As if it were a proven fact that all non-Muslims have nothing better to do than thinking of devious ways of maligning our Holy Prophet's name. They were careful to add "may peace be upon him" every time the name was mentioned. Some of them offered to sacrifice their own lives to protect the honour of our Holy Prophet.

It sickened me to think that the honour of the Prophet of the second largest religion in the world needed protection from these people. And then it occurred to me that they were actually sending secret signals to any would be killers that said, "Look we speak the same language, we are not blasphemers like that governor guy. We watch our words. We know about the sensitivities of our Muslim brothers. In fact we are as sensitive as you are."

Taseer's body was still in the morgue when I started to find out more about the sensitivities of our people. Whereas most people rushed home and sat glued to their TVs, probably agreeing or disagreeing with those TV presenters, many of those interviewed at random seemed to approve. "Well, murder is wrong, but he did say bad things about our Prophet," one man said. Another claimed that if he had got a chance he would do the same thing. When asked how they knew that Taseer had committed blasphemy, they just shrugged as if saying they just knew. As if they had decided that he just seemed like the kind of guy who would do something like this.

Even before Taseer was given a burial, his killer had become a hero of sorts. Constable Mumtaz Qadri belonged to Punjab's Elite Force, a police force usually deployed to provide security to VIPs. And although he had acted alone, at least some of his colleagues knew that he was planning to assassinate the governor. He had made them promise that they wouldn't shoot him in the act. Hence, after pumping 27 bullets into the governor's body, he calmly handed himself over to his colleagues who had apparently kept their promise. They tied his hands and legs with a nylon rope and took him away. By the evening, Qadri's picture had replaced a thousand profile pictures on Facebook. He was a mujahid, a lion, a true hero of Islam. We wish there were more of him.

Little is known about Qadri at this stage, except that he attended pro-blasphemy law rallies and was considered a bit of a religious nut. His name tells us that he wasn't born into the kind of family where lessons of jihad are served with school meals. Qadris are a subsect of Barelvi Sunni Muslims, who were traditionally more likely to enjoy Qawwali music and distributing rice pudding to celebrate their spirituality. Pakistan has seen so much sectarian strife over the last two decades that no single group is now above the fray. Last year, a wave of suicide bombings across the country targeted Sufi shrines, the places millions of Pakistanis have traditionally preferred to mosques. Now the devotees of these shrines publicly pledge to save them through an armed struggle. But when it comes to the honour of our Holy Prophet the devotees of these shrines and those who consider this whole shrine thing a big bad blasphemy, all come together. And everyone else stays silent or applauds them on Facebook.

So who are these people who lionise the cold-blooded murderer? Your regular kids, really. Some Pakistani bloggers have tried to get these fan pages banned for inciting hate. But as soon as one shuts down, another five crop up. Those who have trawled the profiles of these supporters have said that they have MBA degrees, they follow Premier League football, they love the Pirates of the Caribbean films. Miley Cyrus figures on lots of these pages. And as the Pakistani blogger who blogs under the name Kala Kawa pointed out: "If you go through the profiles of Qadri supporters on Facebook, you'd think Justin Bieber was the cause of extremism in Pakistan."

Many of Taseer's Twitter followers were retweeting his old messages full of courage, humour and, above all, his humanity, his decision to stand with Pakistan's most powerless citizen, a poor non-Muslim woman languishing in a death cell. In one of his messages, he had said that he'd not bow down even if he was the last man standing. Only eight hours before his assassination, he tweeted an Urdu couplet by Shakeel Badayuni featured and translated by a Pakistani media blog Cafe Pyala:

"My resolve is so strong that I do not fear the flames from without

I fear only the radiance of the flowers, that it might burn my garden down."

How Pakistan responded to Salmaan Taseer's assassination | World news | The Guardian