No control over operations of Army, ISI: govt

[blain2]

These men in uniform are the most shameless people you can see around.

A freaking 2nd Lieutenant thinks he owns the country let alone a general's view of this country.

Being shameless is all relative. The above is the oft-repeated, most unfounded gripe against the entire military. In Pakistan, everyone thinks he or she owns the country. Its a cultural issue because nobody respects the rule of law. If a man in uniform does something, it is automatically magnified and used to whip the entire institution. The civilians in power will rape, pillage and steal from the people day and night, yet just because they do so often and are caught doing it, nobody bothers and thinks it an oddity, yet when an officer of the armed forces overreaches his authority, there is no saving the institute from the stereotyping that goes on.

 

[tamygu]

 

[VCheng]

Being shameless is all relative. The above is the oft-repeated, most unfounded gripe against the entire military. In Pakistan, everyone thinks he or she owns the country. Its a cultural issue because nobody respects the rule of law. If a man in uniform does something, it is automatically magnified and used to whip the entire institution. The civilians in power will rape, pillage and steal from the people day and night, yet just because they do so often and are caught doing it, nobody bothers and thinks it an oddity, yet when an officer of the armed forces overreaches his authority, there is no saving the institute from the stereotyping that goes on.

You have described the real tragedy: everybody is looking after their own selves, and no one is looking after the ship of state as it sinks.

 

[Donatello]

Circus going on. I definitely don't want the front seats.

 

[desiman]

and From when u are expert in Pakistani politics.

We are better off ,we have seen what this democracy can do for us.

It totally better for us that Army and esp ISI stay awy from GOVT. coz corrupt bastards are going to bring things down as well.

All this noise is just coz of ISI doing its JOB perfectly well.

Democracy cant do anything for you because you dont let it last. The Army and the ISI were never in Pakistan's control to start with so this news is not surprising at all. Naive Pakistanis dont understand that its is essential for civilians to maintain control over the army and the intelligence agencies or else a country can never be stable.

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

There should be a more alarming headline - "No control over government: People of Pakistan" or "Full control over Pakistan: United States".

Blame your army for that, its a general that left Pakistan in a mess before the civilian government took over, Pakistan forgets its real enemies too fast.

 

[Fracker]

Democracy cant do anything for you because you dont let it last. The Army and the ISI were never in Pakistan's control to start with so this news is not surprising at all. Naive Pakistanis dont understand that its is essential for civilians to maintain control over the army and the intelligence agencies or else a country can never be stable.

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

In 1971, After General Elections, Bhutto vs Mujeeb politics break the country. In 1988 when BB was back, they started to take loans and corruption was so high that all loans went into the waste and in the end 1996 even pakistani was accountable for 35k Rs laon for the corruption of the democracy. no again when Democracy is back, the parliment choose most corrupt president of the history, and whole political system started to suck the blood out of People Pakistan. how can we even allow to prevail this type of democracy which gives nothing but push pakistan and pakistanies down morally and financially and in the end ethically.

Be it Army Generals, democratic leaders or what so ever, they all come into power to loot the country. But democracy bring more people then Army rule, so less people = less corruption.

It looks funny but this is true...

Edit: Government is alone responsible for this scenario

 

[Awesome]

Democracy cant do anything for you because you dont let it last. The Army and the ISI were never in Pakistan's control to start with so this news is not surprising at all. Naive Pakistanis dont understand that its is essential for civilians to maintain control over the army and the intelligence agencies or else a country can never be stable.

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------



Blame your army for that, its a general that left Pakistan in a mess before the civilian government took over, Pakistan forgets its real enemies too fast.

How far back should I look - I understand Ayub and Zia colluded with the Americans - but today, its the other way round.

 

[third eye]

Our Army is nothing as sinister as you wishful Indians may think it to be. The fact is a simple one. When its an issue of national security, the Army will speak up because this is what the Pakistani nation expects it to do. When Pakistan's internal issues are being shipped off to the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States to make a decision on, then the Army will speak its mind and make sure that the idiots running the government hear it and especially the President, who for his own selfish reasons has mired the Presidency and the state institutions such as the military in such a hideous controversy.

I do not, for even a second, support the idea of the Army taking over. They cannot and must not, as this is something that only the elected representatives can fix, however as we limp to that democratic stability, we cannot ignore the ground realities which include efforts to undermine the nation's armed forces by trying to exert external pressure just so the corrupt, ineffective President can sit snug in the Presidency.

This is something that the vast majority of Pakistanis cannot stand for. The military is far from being perfect, it is perfect nowhere, however for it to become completely subservient to the civilian parliament will require significant display of maturity and understanding from the elected lot. Thus far, they have shown that they are dismally incapable of doing so, thus they are never able to gain the trust of the military. The memo-gate scandal is the height of stupidity of the insecure and ineffective government led by Zardari.

Zardari should be ousted by his very own party, while Gillani, as the elected head of the Government should complete his term.

A sensible post.

Though its an internal matter of Pak but as an outsider I what I understand is that this memo stems from the deep rooted sense of fear that exists in Pak of the army and what it is capable of. Time & again Govts have been overthrown by the Generals who have not performed any better than the Politicians themselves.

The exists a bogey in the minds of Pakistanis that the Army is a saviour and does good . Its quite like a steroid that gives the illusion of well being and if not discontinued leads to permanent and long term harmful effects some of which have been visible for the last decade.

There never was a doubt that GOP lived on the largesse of Washington. It would therefore be natural for GOP to escalate their fears to them. The method adopted was ill advised and poorly executed.

The Army is not a panacea this is something for the ppl of Pak to realise. They themselves have to be the masters of their destiny and not a uniformed man.

How they wish to be their own masters is for them to decide , the current option is through the ballot not the bullet.

Till they assert themselves they shall continue to be tossed around between one uniformed soldier to another.

 

[fatman17]

^not read any of the above posts but i have a question - govt does not have 'control' over army 'operations' - can we define these 'operations'??? does the PM now want to play 'general' and plan army operations?

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

PM gave approval of Swat/FATA 'operations' as far as i know.

 

[GUNNER]

^not read any of the above posts but i have a question - govt does not have 'control' over army 'operations' - can we define these 'operations'??? does the PM now want to play 'general' and plan army operations?

The headline stems from the reply given by the defence ministry in the Supreme Court on the memo-case. The ministry said it had only administrative control over the army & ISI and not operational control. It wasn't a statement by the PM. In any case, this has been stated time and again by the govt in the parliament that it exercises only administrative control. On the contrary, Gilani's yesterday's speech was clear that every institution including the armed forces were answerable to the parliament.

 

[All-Green]

The issue with government is complete lack of credibility on internal matters.
I would say let us leave US WOT out of it so that we be more fair, since we were on board in Musharraf era as well.

Let us view where the government really lost the trust or respect of the masses.

The government (read Zardari) went against all norms in the dealings over Rental Power Plants.
Despite resignation of finance minister...
Despite hue and cry by every known expert in Pakistan...

The highly used second hand equipment, the unprecedented magnitude of advance payment...unbelievable when we consider the fact that Pakistan has enough power plants to meet its requirement and if fund was instead allocated to clear past payments, we would have all plants on the grid today.

The government (Mr. Z) sure can bulldoze its way through massive opposition on controversial deals, why then does it pretend that it is powerless and criticism of government is a threat to democracy.
The real threat to democracy is the undemocratic and corrupt dealings of Zardari whose party is standing by him, much to the sorrow of the nation which is suffering another kind of pain in addition to the one that was there under Army rule as well.

I will not tolerate Army rule or support it ever again, but to hide behind excuse of Army interference is pathetic considering that Army will never interfere with projects like Kalabagh damn, Thar coal, gold/copper mines, power plants etc.
Mostly these projects were being handled corruptly and court took notices over grave concerns which are all quite transparent to the nation.

The government did not do a single thing right when it comes to projects of social uplift in Pakistan.
This is what has made it unpopular.

Army has no business to rule country but government has no excuse for its colossal failures over power management, price control, energy crisis etc. which have alienated it more than anything else.

 

[asad ikram]

thats hillarious how a prime minister of a country insulting their own defence forces..thats show how patriotic they are...they should hang to death ....bullshit gillaani and zardari....bunch of bastards...army should take c0ntrol now.enough is enough

 

[All-Green]

thats hillarious how a prime minister of a country insulting their own defence forces..thats show how patriotic they are...they should hang to death ....bullshit gillaani and zardari....bunch of bastards...army should take c0ntrol now.enough is enough

My brother, just relax.
The issue is not about the PM criticizing the Army, he can do it if he is doing his job.
But doing it to divert real issues is not acceptable.

The issue is about the PM not doing anything at all regarding the key issues facing our nation today out of which the security problem is a small part.
The PM is always on the defensive mode regarding government failures and after memo gate court hearing he drops the bomb that democracy is threatened by state within state.

Just as dear old Haqqani is claiming that memo is not a threat to national security, one wonders how this harmless memo can be a threat to democracy if the court investigates the matter?

What state is the PM running?
Is it PPP or Pakistan?

Army takeover is not at all acceptable and generals are not meant to rule, they are failures in that as time has proven.
However if the PM is concerned more about democracy than PPP CO chairperson, he should aggressively grab this gold digging bull by the horn and put him in place.

On security count, both Army and Civilian leadership failed to varying degrees so i do not wish to compare the two over WOT etc.
However it is the PM and his team who have utterly failed the nation when it comes to socio economic progress, Army is not to be blamed for this at least.

 

[Rahil khan]

Pakistan army chief says coup speculation false
At the same time, President Asif Ali Zardar’s office said Zardari had no intention of leaving the country over the scandal, which has raised tensions and undermined the already deeply unpopular president.

An army statement quoted military chief General Ashfaq Kayani as telling troops the military will continue to support democracy in Pakistan and that any talk the army was planning to take over was “speculation”.

Many Pakistanis wonder whether Zardari can survive the crisis, and speculation has been growing the powerful generals will try to oust him somehow.

The tension is a worrying sign for the region and for Pakistan’s uneasy relationship with its key ally, the United States.

The United States wants political stability in Pakistan so that Islamabad can help fight militancy and aid Western efforts to stabilise Afghanistan.

Zardari, known for his resilience in the face of pressure, has no intention of leaving, a senior member of his ruling party said.

“The current information is there is no such plan. He is very much here,” the official, Shazia Marri, told Reuters.

“It’s all speculation, and such speculation has proven baseless in the past as well,” Marri said.

Pakistan’s top judge earlier moved to allay fears of a possible military coup as tensions rose.

“There is no question of a takeover. Gone are the days when people used to get validation for unconstitutional steps from the courts,” Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry said.

The Supreme Court is looking into a petition demanding an inquiry into what has become known as “memogate”. Kayani, arguably the most powerful man in the country, has called for an investigation into who may have been behind the memo.

“Spectre Haunts Pakistan”

Newspaper editorials on Friday highlighted unease in the nuclear-armed South Asian nation, predicting a showdown between Zardari and his allies and the military, which is so influential it has been described as a state within a state.

“A spectre is haunting Pakistan – the spectre of a clash between the army and the government that threatens to turn fatal,” said an editorial in the News.

Businessman Mansoor Ijaz, writing in a column in the Financial Times on Oct. 10, said a senior Pakistani diplomat had asked that a memo be delivered to the Pentagon with a plea for US help to stave off a military coup in the days after the raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in May.

Ijaz later identified the diplomat as Pakistan’s ambassador to Washington, Husain Haqqani, a Zardari ally who denied involvement but resigned over the controversy.

The military faced unprecedented public criticism over the bin Laden affair, widely seen as a violation of sovereignty.

But many Pakistanis rallied around the army after a Nov. 26 air attack by US forces in Afghanistan mistakenly killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on the border. The memo has also helped boost the army’s image at the expense of the government.

Zardari’s government has become increasingly unpopular since he took office in 2008. It has failed to tackle myriad problems, from crippling power cuts to suicide bombings and a struggling economy.

The army is fed up with Zardari and wants him out of office, although through legal means and without a repeat of the coups that are a hallmark of the country’s 64 years of independence, military sources told Reuters on Thursday.

Tempers Flare

Another military source said tensions must be defused.

“Tempers are flaring; there is no doubt about that. However, there are efforts to pacify the situation as well. And I hope they work, as under the current scenario, it is fast becoming a recipe for a head-on collision,” he told Reuters on Friday.

Dawn, one of the country’s most respected newspapers, said it would be premature to assert that an “extra-constitutional” removal of the government was in the works, but it noted the army has seized power before.

Friction between Pakistan’s civilian government and military have bedevilled the nation for almost its entire existence, with the military ruling for more than half its 64-year history.

The army remains the arbiter of power and analysts say it has plenty of ways to pressure Zardari to step down, especially if a link is established between him and the memo, which sought the Pentagon’s help in averting a feared coup.

In the past the army has asked Pakistani civilian leaders to resign and influenced judicial proceedings against them.

On Thursday, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani told parliament that any institution acting as a “state within a state” was unacceptable, a clear reference to the military.

Zardari returned to Pakistan this week from medical treatment in Dubai that raised speculation he would resign under pressure from the military.

Although his position is largely ceremonial, he wields considerable influence as leader of the ruling party and his forced departure would be a humiliation for the civilian leadership and could throw the country into turmoil.

Zardari is the widower of former premier Benazir Bhutto, who spent years opposing military rule before she was assassinated in 2007.

Pakistan’s next parliamentary elections are not due until 2013, although some opposition parties have been calling for early polls. Presidents are elected by legislatorsISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s powerful military pledged on Friday to continue supporting democracy, reiterating it was not planning a takeover as tensions grew over a controversial memo alleging an army plot to seize power.

 

[Fracker]

An analyst said yesterday, i like to share. "What good this government did in last 3 n half years that they thing Army or ISI should be in their control? Do we want to see army and ISI as same faith as Steel Mill, PIA, Railways?"