emperorfurkan
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VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FUNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 
No ammo, air defence obsolete: Army Chief to PM
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Emmie
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Once a kid always a kid.... You could not answer any of my queries.. And I am begging you!! Wao hahahahha
Anyways, keep trolling..
Because he is the army chief, and in India, he is understood to speak only about the army - not about the air force, not about who should be the prime minister, or anything else.
Maybe this is a difference in how the office of army chief is viewed in both these countries. Every Indian would take this statement to mean army air defence, because the army chief is not expected to (and never has) commented on anything else, at least not in his official capacity.
In pakistan the army chief is much more powerful, and is expected to talk about all defence (and even non defence) establishments. That's the only reasoning I can give for this misunderstanding.
And as I said before, if the entire air force is also taken into account, there is no way that the air defence can be 97 percent obsolete. Even the most obsolete aircrafts in the IAF are capable of taking on at least some of the aircrafts from, say pakistan.
What is stopping them?
And even whenn they hear that India's preparedness is at their lowest, they need Chinese help to even dream (and it is only a dream) of attacking India. Tells you something, doesn't it?
How trucks drove the Army bribe row
In 1999, millions of Indians watched as batteries of Indian multi-barrel rocket launchers unleashed fearsome barrages against Pakistani positions on the Kargil heights — clearing the way for soldiers who had come under withering fire as they sought to claw their way up the mountains.
In an explosive interview to The Hindu published on Monday, Chief of the Army Staff General V.K. Singh said the Tatra trucks that carried those rockets were substandard and sold at exorbitant prices. He added that there was no proper facility where they could be serviced.
Had audiences watched the trucks carefully, they would have noticed that the driver sat on the left — an extraordinary testament to how much a vehicle that began to be produced in India in 1986 still relies on imported equipment.
Lieutenant-General (retd.) Tejinder Singh, a former intelligence officer who is alleged to have offered the Army chief a Rs. 14 crore bribe, is claimed to have been trying to make sure they kept being bought.
The politics of trucks
Tatra's fortunes in India have been tied to Ravi Rishi, a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology in New Delhi who went on to own the London-headquartered consortium Vectra — a multinational conglomerate with interests in everything from private aviation to luxury apartments. Mr. Rishi's crown jewel, though, is his controlling interest in Tatra — a Czech firm he picked up cheap, amid the collapse of eastern Europe's arms industry after the cold war.
Founded in 1850, Tatra supplies trucks to at least 23 militaries, among them the United States, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. In 1973, Israel was so impressed by the Tatra trucks captured from its Arab adversaries that it began importing them, using Rumanian president Nicolai Ceausescu's cash-starved regime as a conduit.
In 1986, when India began a great wave of military modernisation, Mr. Rishi steered Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's government towards picking Tatra. Public sector giant BEML was given a licence to manufacture the trucks. In the years since, almost 7,000 have been built.
Mr. Rishi declined to be interviewed for this article. The Ministry of Defence, however, said on Monday it had not received a single complaint about the truck, a very different account to that given by Gen. Singh.
The sceptical General
Weeks after taking office, Gen. V.K. Singh stalled an order for 788 new Tatra trucks approved by his predecessor, arguing the vehicle was overpriced and underperformed. Earlier, as General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Army Command, General Singh had considered the competing claims of Ural, a Russian-Indian joint venture, and had been impressed.
In 2009, highly placed military sources said Gen. Singh had informally used two Ural trucks to ferry supplies to Sikkim. His staff reported the trucks were better-powered than their Tatra competitors.
Led by Kolkata-based businessman J.K. Saraf, Ural is a joint venture between Russian firm Uralaz and Mr. Saraf's Motijug industries, which manufactures heavy vehicles at Haldia, in West Bengal. Ural did not respond to e-mail seeking its comments.
Gen. Singh, as Chief of the Army Staff, wanted to give Ural and other firms a chance to bid for the Army's truck contracts. His decision to open up bidding is what, the General's aides claim, led to the effort to bribe him. Even though Tatra did not sell directly to the Army, they argue, it still sold high-priced components to BEML — and thus had an interest in ensuring the sales continued.
Hard questions
There's little doubt Tatra components seem overpriced: a jack, for example, costs Rs. 30,000. There are claims that Indian-made four-wheel drive platforms cost Rs. 18 lakh or less, to the Tatra's Rs. 80 lakh — and that the BEML-made Tatra sells for substantially more than it is available off the shelf abroad.
Like so much to do with military procurement, though, it is unclear if the high prices have to do with corruption — or India's complex defence procurement policies.
For one, indigenisation of the vehicle has gone slowly. Last year, BEML's director V.R.S. Natarajan said the Tatra was now 60 per cent Indian-made — up from 21 per cent in 2002. BEML finally began making its own Tatra engines in-house. The truck ought, however, to have been wholly Indian-made by now, leading to allegations that BEML is wilfully importing form Tatra at high cost.
“It's easy,” said a military engineer linked with BEML, disagreeing, “to point fingers, but these are complex financial questions. BEML, for example, imports left-hand drive axles, because setting up new ones for right-hand drive would cost hundreds of crores. There's no guarantee the Army will order enough trucks for that to make sense.”
High pricing has dogged almost all Indian efforts to indigenise complex foreign-made products, because of the enormous costs of setting up production lines to manufacture low volumes.
The Ministry of Defence has long argued these investments are worthwhile despite their costs, since they help India build up long-term industrial capacities with civilian technology spin-offs.
India's next order for Army trucks — some 1,500, to be tested rigorously and purchased through a competitive process — will establish whether it is possible to get better trucks for less money. It is unlikely, though, to address the larger problems that dog the acquisition process.
The Hindu : News / National : How trucks drove the Army bribe row
The general is certainly creating uproar everywhere he goes - personal vendetta or bitterness or trying to alert the government - but why do it like this?
In 1999, millions of Indians watched as batteries of Indian multi-barrel rocket launchers unleashed fearsome barrages against Pakistani positions on the Kargil heights — clearing the way for soldiers who had come under withering fire as they sought to claw their way up the mountains.
In an explosive interview to The Hindu published on Monday, Chief of the Army Staff General V.K. Singh said the Tatra trucks that carried those rockets were substandard and sold at exorbitant prices. He added that there was no proper facility where they could be serviced.
Had audiences watched the trucks carefully, they would have noticed that the driver sat on the left — an extraordinary testament to how much a vehicle that began to be produced in India in 1986 still relies on imported equipment.
Lieutenant-General (retd.) Tejinder Singh, a former intelligence officer who is alleged to have offered the Army chief a Rs. 14 crore bribe, is claimed to have been trying to make sure they kept being bought.
The politics of trucks
Tatra's fortunes in India have been tied to Ravi Rishi, a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology in New Delhi who went on to own the London-headquartered consortium Vectra — a multinational conglomerate with interests in everything from private aviation to luxury apartments. Mr. Rishi's crown jewel, though, is his controlling interest in Tatra — a Czech firm he picked up cheap, amid the collapse of eastern Europe's arms industry after the cold war.
Founded in 1850, Tatra supplies trucks to at least 23 militaries, among them the United States, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. In 1973, Israel was so impressed by the Tatra trucks captured from its Arab adversaries that it began importing them, using Rumanian president Nicolai Ceausescu's cash-starved regime as a conduit.
In 1986, when India began a great wave of military modernisation, Mr. Rishi steered Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's government towards picking Tatra. Public sector giant BEML was given a licence to manufacture the trucks. In the years since, almost 7,000 have been built.
Mr. Rishi declined to be interviewed for this article. The Ministry of Defence, however, said on Monday it had not received a single complaint about the truck, a very different account to that given by Gen. Singh.
The sceptical General
Weeks after taking office, Gen. V.K. Singh stalled an order for 788 new Tatra trucks approved by his predecessor, arguing the vehicle was overpriced and underperformed. Earlier, as General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Army Command, General Singh had considered the competing claims of Ural, a Russian-Indian joint venture, and had been impressed.
In 2009, highly placed military sources said Gen. Singh had informally used two Ural trucks to ferry supplies to Sikkim. His staff reported the trucks were better-powered than their Tatra competitors.
Led by Kolkata-based businessman J.K. Saraf, Ural is a joint venture between Russian firm Uralaz and Mr. Saraf's Motijug industries, which manufactures heavy vehicles at Haldia, in West Bengal. Ural did not respond to e-mail seeking its comments.
Gen. Singh, as Chief of the Army Staff, wanted to give Ural and other firms a chance to bid for the Army's truck contracts. His decision to open up bidding is what, the General's aides claim, led to the effort to bribe him. Even though Tatra did not sell directly to the Army, they argue, it still sold high-priced components to BEML — and thus had an interest in ensuring the sales continued.
Hard questions
There's little doubt Tatra components seem overpriced: a jack, for example, costs Rs. 30,000. There are claims that Indian-made four-wheel drive platforms cost Rs. 18 lakh or less, to the Tatra's Rs. 80 lakh — and that the BEML-made Tatra sells for substantially more than it is available off the shelf abroad.
Like so much to do with military procurement, though, it is unclear if the high prices have to do with corruption — or India's complex defence procurement policies.
For one, indigenisation of the vehicle has gone slowly. Last year, BEML's director V.R.S. Natarajan said the Tatra was now 60 per cent Indian-made — up from 21 per cent in 2002. BEML finally began making its own Tatra engines in-house. The truck ought, however, to have been wholly Indian-made by now, leading to allegations that BEML is wilfully importing form Tatra at high cost.
“It's easy,” said a military engineer linked with BEML, disagreeing, “to point fingers, but these are complex financial questions. BEML, for example, imports left-hand drive axles, because setting up new ones for right-hand drive would cost hundreds of crores. There's no guarantee the Army will order enough trucks for that to make sense.”
High pricing has dogged almost all Indian efforts to indigenise complex foreign-made products, because of the enormous costs of setting up production lines to manufacture low volumes.
The Ministry of Defence has long argued these investments are worthwhile despite their costs, since they help India build up long-term industrial capacities with civilian technology spin-offs.
India's next order for Army trucks — some 1,500, to be tested rigorously and purchased through a competitive process — will establish whether it is possible to get better trucks for less money. It is unlikely, though, to address the larger problems that dog the acquisition process.
The Hindu : News / National : How trucks drove the Army bribe row
The general is certainly creating uproar everywhere he goes - personal vendetta or bitterness or trying to alert the government - but why do it like this?
The Great One
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I thought we become an adolescent after being a kid.
But anyways carry on. Who am I to stop you.
Good article, but off topic for the thread. There are other threads running about that.
As to your comment, I will say what the supreme court has observed. The motivations of the person exposing corruption does not matter. Whether he is doing it for personal vendetta or bitterness, or out of a genuine desire to set things straight, the substance of his complaints is what matters and should be looked into. Exposing corruption in the government is always to be praised, no matter what the agenda or motives of the person who does it.
The Great One
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As for Air Defence.
I though we were soon gonna buy thousands of Akash systems and there was a tender for MANPADS.
I though we were soon gonna buy thousands of Akash systems and there was a tender for MANPADS.
Good advice...just shoot the messenger no need to fix the problem!
angeldemon_007
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^^^
Well he is right to some extent but just to be clear IA purchased three time the Spyder that IAF has. Then IA's Akash order is also very very big, i mean in billions. Other old equipments are have been modernized.
Now as far as Gen. Singh is concerned. I really don't care what he is doing unless he is able to stop this blockade for IA. I mean just look at it guys, IAF and IN are making purchases and i really don't remember when was the last time IA made some important deal. Its not like they don't need anything, infact its just the opposite, IA needs everything. In air defence, radar and electronic warfare IA will need an expenditure of close to 7-8 billion$.
I mean what happened to BMP-2 and t72 upgrades ??? MOD even said in Parliament that MBTs now have night vision but its no true also no deal has been signed yet for their upgrades. One of the biggest army in the world operates close to 200 helicopters and out of that too majority is LUH. No ATGM, no tank ammo, no howitzers, infantry is still fighting the 1970 war. Also many deals that were cleared by his predecessor were infact confusing :
(1) LUH : Fennec is somehow favorite but it failed the test during last fiasco with BELL Helicopters (while their chopper passed the test.)
(2) ATGM : I really don't get why we chose an expensive, not that advanced, without no ToT, Javelin ATGM when Israel is ready to give everything for its cheaper, more advanced and with full ToT, Spike ATGM.
(3) Howitzers : Why M777 when the guns failed the tests ??? Why not check out Pegasus ??? Also in towed howitzer competition, now it will be 5th time the contest will happen and we all know who win, yes none other than Bofors. Congress has to get over itself. They can show the field trials report in the Parliament ask the whole house what to do if they are so afraid. I mean if everybody will see how IA is suffering because of lack of 155 mm guns and how bofors is undoubtedly the best gun, then they will accept it.
I really don't see what Gen. Singh said was wrong. Yeah the means were but politics and bureaucracy can be very frustrating. If anybody has seen " office office" or had a first hand experience with bureaucrats he/she can tell you that they have the power of making you crazy with just a simple power, listen from one ear and let it go from the second ear and do nothing.
IN SHORT GUYS, THE FACT REMAIN THE SAME, NO IA DEAL HAS BEEN CLEARED FOR A VERY LONG TIME. ITS NOT LIKE IA DELAYED, ALL THE EVALUATION ARE COMPLETED AND FINAL REPORTS ARE LYING IN A CORNER OF MOD. TAKE ANY DEAL, ATGM, LUH,M777, OTHER HOWITZERS ETC. ETC.
Well he is right to some extent but just to be clear IA purchased three time the Spyder that IAF has. Then IA's Akash order is also very very big, i mean in billions. Other old equipments are have been modernized.
Now as far as Gen. Singh is concerned. I really don't care what he is doing unless he is able to stop this blockade for IA. I mean just look at it guys, IAF and IN are making purchases and i really don't remember when was the last time IA made some important deal. Its not like they don't need anything, infact its just the opposite, IA needs everything. In air defence, radar and electronic warfare IA will need an expenditure of close to 7-8 billion$.
I mean what happened to BMP-2 and t72 upgrades ??? MOD even said in Parliament that MBTs now have night vision but its no true also no deal has been signed yet for their upgrades. One of the biggest army in the world operates close to 200 helicopters and out of that too majority is LUH. No ATGM, no tank ammo, no howitzers, infantry is still fighting the 1970 war. Also many deals that were cleared by his predecessor were infact confusing :
(1) LUH : Fennec is somehow favorite but it failed the test during last fiasco with BELL Helicopters (while their chopper passed the test.)
(2) ATGM : I really don't get why we chose an expensive, not that advanced, without no ToT, Javelin ATGM when Israel is ready to give everything for its cheaper, more advanced and with full ToT, Spike ATGM.
(3) Howitzers : Why M777 when the guns failed the tests ??? Why not check out Pegasus ??? Also in towed howitzer competition, now it will be 5th time the contest will happen and we all know who win, yes none other than Bofors. Congress has to get over itself. They can show the field trials report in the Parliament ask the whole house what to do if they are so afraid. I mean if everybody will see how IA is suffering because of lack of 155 mm guns and how bofors is undoubtedly the best gun, then they will accept it.
I really don't see what Gen. Singh said was wrong. Yeah the means were but politics and bureaucracy can be very frustrating. If anybody has seen " office office" or had a first hand experience with bureaucrats he/she can tell you that they have the power of making you crazy with just a simple power, listen from one ear and let it go from the second ear and do nothing.
IN SHORT GUYS, THE FACT REMAIN THE SAME, NO IA DEAL HAS BEEN CLEARED FOR A VERY LONG TIME. ITS NOT LIKE IA DELAYED, ALL THE EVALUATION ARE COMPLETED AND FINAL REPORTS ARE LYING IN A CORNER OF MOD. TAKE ANY DEAL, ATGM, LUH,M777, OTHER HOWITZERS ETC. ETC.
What I find amusing in all this is the claim India had been making for decades now, all seems to be falling apart.............
For long they have been claiming that they are building their armed ofrces and purchasing new material/weapons, increasing military budgets as the real threat is China, and it is China that they want to check, however as soon as something like this comes out, the very first thing the former Army Chief says is "PAKISTAN MUST BE LAUGHING".........eeeerrrrrr hello, why Pakistan, shouldn't it be that China must be laughing, clearly the Indians are playing the same old Indian game of aiming at us but claiming there going to shoot at others...........what stupidity
For long they have been claiming that they are building their armed ofrces and purchasing new material/weapons, increasing military budgets as the real threat is China, and it is China that they want to check, however as soon as something like this comes out, the very first thing the former Army Chief says is "PAKISTAN MUST BE LAUGHING".........eeeerrrrrr hello, why Pakistan, shouldn't it be that China must be laughing, clearly the Indians are playing the same old Indian game of aiming at us but claiming there going to shoot at others...........what stupidity
The media in India seems to be just plain daft........
1.) The Army Chief decided to take a matter to court over the age issues after failing to reach an agreement with the MoD, that is his consitutional and democratic right. He did not agree with the decision and there was an option available to him to go to court and he took it up.....
2.) He came forward and informed, AND INFORMED the MoD of a bribery attempt on himself, and as such was told to investigate it. What utter rubbish, how can the complainant or his organisation investigate a matter like this themselves. It is done by the civilian investigators, i.e. the CBI or Police........not Mr Singh or the IA. I cannot believe the level of incompetence within the MoD to blame that on the COAS.
3.) The letter written is absolutely correct, and he highlighted this to the highest authority, why, so that if War did break out, and like post Kargil, where an investigation is held and the IA blamed for lack of information provided to the political class, at least the COAS can prove he conducted his duties fully and cannot be blamed for mismanagement and holding back information. COAS and the heads of the Air Force and Navy in India used to meet the PM personally every month to highlight shortcomings in the Military all the way up until Congress came to power, now its once every 6 months.....WTF, and then they have the nerve to blame him. I would not be surprised if this letter, a confidential document was leaked by the Government in a calculated move to have the COAS removed, due to him not agreeing with corruption in the Military, clearly kickbacks are not just contained within the Military and involves high level politicians.........
1.) The Army Chief decided to take a matter to court over the age issues after failing to reach an agreement with the MoD, that is his consitutional and democratic right. He did not agree with the decision and there was an option available to him to go to court and he took it up.....
2.) He came forward and informed, AND INFORMED the MoD of a bribery attempt on himself, and as such was told to investigate it. What utter rubbish, how can the complainant or his organisation investigate a matter like this themselves. It is done by the civilian investigators, i.e. the CBI or Police........not Mr Singh or the IA. I cannot believe the level of incompetence within the MoD to blame that on the COAS.
3.) The letter written is absolutely correct, and he highlighted this to the highest authority, why, so that if War did break out, and like post Kargil, where an investigation is held and the IA blamed for lack of information provided to the political class, at least the COAS can prove he conducted his duties fully and cannot be blamed for mismanagement and holding back information. COAS and the heads of the Air Force and Navy in India used to meet the PM personally every month to highlight shortcomings in the Military all the way up until Congress came to power, now its once every 6 months.....WTF, and then they have the nerve to blame him. I would not be surprised if this letter, a confidential document was leaked by the Government in a calculated move to have the COAS removed, due to him not agreeing with corruption in the Military, clearly kickbacks are not just contained within the Military and involves high level politicians.........
MilSpec
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IOF is the biggest rot in the system, when an army chief comes out to say it, all kinds of stupid allegations are thrown at him. Throw out sonia and her cronies who are looting the system!!!!
Do you really think, a company making billions of dollars, politicians who make millions of dollars in kickbacks are really going to let a COAS with a wage of 1-2 crore put a spanner in the works............. I haven't checked and am not aware, but I am going to take it India is making some very important purchases soon which involve alot of money which require completion during the tenure of the COAS, and he happens to be a thorn in these kickbacks.....it would explain why politicians want him out
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What did Army chief expect in return..? Rose petals..
Welcome to Nehruvian era where the ego of some people are given much preference over the national security. Wonder who is the Krishna Menon this time..
Did not whether to laugh or, cry at the outrageous comment by the goon parliamentarians on the character of Army Chief. The likes of Lalu,Shivanand and Vyalar have openly termed Army chief as " Frustrated" which is condemnable and hilarious at the same time..
Welcome to Nehruvian era where the ego of some people are given much preference over the national security. Wonder who is the Krishna Menon this time..
Did not whether to laugh or, cry at the outrageous comment by the goon parliamentarians on the character of Army Chief. The likes of Lalu,Shivanand and Vyalar have openly termed Army chief as " Frustrated" which is condemnable and hilarious at the same time..
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