New Threat to Pakistan with India,s New K4 SLBM test next month

[Secur]

... what i mean is for every $ spend by Pakistan on countering ABM we will have to spend $10 to counter the counter measure...Now only a fool will say that we have unlimited amount...having said that in present terms and foreseeable future we don't see major concerns in attributing additional money for ABM program should push come to shove...because the benefits of an effective ABM viz-a-viz Pakistan simply out-runs the cost issues...

I got what you meant but the cost just gets higher and higher for India while still remaining in a tolerable amount for Islamabad , not to mention if Pakistanis are able to deploy the MIRV on their missiles quickly that will render the shield well ineffective and if I am not exaggerating a bit , almost useless . The ABM's have a particular weakness against the Multiple Independent Reentry Target Vehicles . I can post stuff , I read sometime ago about it . Cmon you have a whole China to counter conventionally . Start not to oversimplify things

 

[deckingraj]

I got what you meant but the cost just gets higher and higher for India while still remaining in a tolerable amount for Islamabad , not to mention if Pakistanis are able to deploy the MIRV on their missiles quickly that will render the shield well ineffective and if I am not exaggerating a bit , almost useless . The ABM's have a particular weakness against the Multiple Independent Reentry Target Vehicles . I can post stuff , I read sometime ago about it .

Buddy, Please understand this is a cost which India is willing to pay...I mean think what's the point in spending millions on R&D if tomorrow you are going to suspend the program and go back to square one??...ABM is effective against MIRV or not is a mere guess ...May be at this time it actually is...but then the current arsenal on both the sides lacks that punch....so an ABM today is a big headache for Pakistan...

 

[Bang Galore]

I got what you meant but the cost just gets higher and higher for India while still remaining in a tolerable amount for Islamabad ,

That's not a correct reading, merely a convenient one. A large part of the costs are sunk costs and are already accounted for. The difference will never amount to be too high for India while being "tolerant" to Pakistan. India does not need unlimited resources, it only needs to stretch Pakistan a bit more. After all, Pakistan too need to calibrate spending. No point in arguing if Pakistan does this or masters that. That too is a cost imposed by India on Pakistan, the very necessity of Pakistan having to do more is a cost.

 

[Sergi]

I got what you meant but the cost just gets higher and higher for India while still remaining in a tolerable amount for Islamabad , not to mention if Pakistanis are able to deploy the MIRV on their missiles quickly that will render the shield well ineffective and if I am not exaggerating a bit , almost useless . The ABM's have a particular weakness against the Multiple Independent Reentry Target Vehicles . I can post stuff , I read sometime ago about it . Cmon you have a whole China to counter conventionally . Start not to oversimplify things

I read almost every post in this thread.
I got a feeling that you are saying When Pak will attack (?) India will be busy intercepting BMs and CMs.
If I am not wrong both India and Pak have the ability to detect nuke launch. So retaliation is on its way before first touch down. So mass volley cant be achieved in the decent numbers as retaliatory strike and the EMP created would clean out lots of assets.Comparatively India has bigger area and longer range missiles.

On one hand both attack and counter attack will be massive , india has atleast a chance ( no matter how thin 10% to 40% ) to shoot down incoming Nuke. Which Pak doesn't have.

So its matter of 1/2 min with the fact who can cover a wide area. Geography is against Pak.
So unless Pak wants to get cleared off map just to setback India 100-200 years nuking isnt a option.

 

[HariPrasad]

And do you guys buy into this? Even a cruise missile with GPS has CEP. And you guys actually buy into 0 CEP crap? LOL

If you guys are not Indians but Eskimos, I can sell you guys ice. And I suck at sales.

Numbers of Video available on youtube regarding the CEP of Cruize missile brahmos. Can you please watch that prior to posting your BS? One video worth more than 100 post. now watch and tell whether it is Zero CEP or not.

 

[Secur]

Buddy, Please understand this is a cost which India is willing to pay...I mean think what's the point in spending millions on R&D if tomorrow you are going to suspend the program and go back to square one??...ABM is effective against MIRV or not is a mere guess ...May be at this time it actually is...but then the current arsenal on both the sides lacks that punch....so an ABM today is a big headache for Pakistan...

Nah , mate , I can understand that . But you still have a long way to go before its even operational , let alone cover a significant part of India . As for the MIRV thing , try to google a few things , it isn't really a guess , based on sound logics and facts . Yes , "maybe" it is at this time , but we have been working on those multiple warheads for quite sometime - a low cost countermeasure actuallly whenever it gets operational . Mate , the ABM today is nothing for Pakistan since its still under development .

 

[deckingraj]

Nah , mate , I can understand that . But you still have a long way to go before its even operational , let alone cover a significant part of Indian. As for the MIRV thing , try to google a few things , it isn't really a guess , based on sound logics and facts . Yes , "maybe" it is at this time , but we have been working on those multiple warheads for quite sometime - a low cost countermeasure actuallly whenever it gets operational . Mate , the ABM today is nothing for Pakistan since its still under development .

You are right...as ABM is not operational and given our past record will take light years before it becomes ....having said that i am not going to field an ABM in an era when my adversary have MIRV technology and i can't counter it...that's why said ABM in present context is a headache and unfortunately(for you) is going to be...unless and until you have something out of blue up your sleeves...

 

[Secur]

So its matter of 1/2 min with the fact who can cover a wide area. Geography is against Pak.
So unless Pak wants to get cleared off map just to setback India 100-200 years nuking isnt a option.

Lets just say that none of the countries continue their existence as a state after a nuclear exchange , so lets hope it never happens because there's no concept of any victory in here , if you are looking for that . Second - read the Samson Option for a change . Neither does someone need to nuke every inch nor are the effects of nuclear fallout are limited to ground zero , they are worse than that .

Unfortunately you are doing the same thing , you are accusing me of , underestimating the enemy .

You are right...as ABM is not operational and given our past record will take light years before it becomes ....having said that i am not going to field an ABM in an era when my adversary have MIRV technology and i can't counter it...that's why said ABM in present context is a headache and unfortunately(for you) is going to be...unless and until you have something out of blue up your sleeves...

Lets see then . As for the MIRV , both the nations are claimed to be working on it , by reports that I cant term as credible so well I do not believe them by think tanks and a couple other sources .

That too is a cost imposed by India on Pakistan, the very necessity of Pakistan having to do more is a cost.

The ABM is a cost imposed by whom on whom then , in the first place ? If I am the one reading conveniently .

 

[dray]

@Alpha1 @Secur So, the best way to counter Pakistani missile threat is to develop strategy & resources to nutralize all known & suspected launch capabilities of Pakistan in a fast & massive preemptive strike, putting into use both conventional & electronic warfare. Woh bhi bana lenge, humlog badebhai hai!!

 

[illusion8]

Yeah , small areas , key locations are understandable , that is where they are good . So , you dont know the effectiveness and feasibility of deploying the system nation wide and yet it is somehow declared credible ? Explain to me how does it nullify any advantage if you do not know the key parameters and want to discuss them neither . I told you earlier to make your mind on what you want to talk on , since you didn't want to go on the technical aspects but still want to prove its credibility . Well , both the Americans and Russians would have destroyed themselves during the Cold war if they had that much confidence in their systems , itching to pull the trigger on different occasions

Yes , its an old link but it pretty much sums up the effort till then and provides a brief history of the programmes back then . Did you see the status/read the article ? . What has changed in that regard ? As for the other links , I have a plenty explaining the ineffectiveness of the ABM , just when I get back on PC .

I am getting bored of this now.

Yeah , small areas , key locations are understandable , that is where they are good . So , you dont know the effectiveness and feasibility of deploying the system nation wide and yet it is somehow declared credible ?

By your logic - if it does not save the entire nation it's not credible...right?

What I am saying is if it can protect major cities, key installations successfully then it's credible.

Explain to me how does it nullify any advantage if you do not know the key parameters and want to discuss them neither .

An ABM system nullifies the advantage of not having one - plain and simple.

I told you earlier to make your mind on what you want to talk on , since you didn't want to go on the technical aspects but still want to prove its credibility .

First of all my argument was not on the technical aspects to begin with. This thread is not about ABM's. You haven't proved that it's not credible - your argument that countermeasures will be developed or that it will be overwhelmed does not mean that it's not credible.

Well , both the Americans and Russians would have destroyed themselves during the Cold war if they had that much confidence in their systems , itching to pull the trigger on different occasions

You seem to have no idea what an ABM system is supposed to do or it's applications or how or why it gets deployed. There is a major row between the US and Russia about deployment of Missile shields in the Central Asian and European states or the row between China and US in deploying long range radars in Japan - read up on that.

Yes , its an old link but it pretty much sums up the effort till then and provides a brief history of the programmes back then .

Waste of time.

 

[Imran Khan]

Pyaar kiya tho darna kya? In other words, India se pyaar karoge tho daro ge nahin!!

hum dil de chuky sanam (china ko)

 

[Sergi]

Lets just say that none of the countries continue their existence as a state after a nuclear exchange , so lets hope it never happens because there's no concept of any victory in here , if you are looking for that . Second - read the Samson Option for a change . Neither does someone need to nuke every inch nor are the effects of nuclear fallout are limited to ground zero , they are worse than that .

Unfortunately you are doing the same thing , you are accusing me of , underestimating the enemy .
.

- yes. Neither will exist as a state.
- where did you see Victory !!!
- yes I know enough about concept holocaust. You are talking about after exchange. I was pointing at during exchange. Everything will change after that.
- I dont see any thing I write is "underestimating". If you think "cleared off" is underestimation I am sorry but thats calculation. There are many dimensions that will come in play in case if full exchange. Sometimes simulations give you fare idea.

 

[JayAtl]

ok Tests...
the actual Nuclear exchange will be far from these tests and simulations; All the successfull missile interceptions are done under carefully controlled conditions where a lot of uncertainities which will be present in an actual war are ignored. forexample the location from where the missile is known ; its dimensions are known.
In an indo-pak nuclear exchange it wont be simple as that.
the BMD will be overwhelmed by the mere number of warheads, there will be many fake launches.
and Pakistan's strategic forces will do everything to maximise the chances of success, we won't play by your ''tests''

This is for all pakistanis because they seem to think the nuclear threshold is the immediate threshold to be used by the pakistani military. You do realize that- to cross that threshold India would have to be approaching your capital and that capital would have to be near decimated about to be run over.

The way I would envision any conflict is targeted attacks on terror camps by the indians and quick draw back. That is the limit to the " war" with pakistan.

and your last sentence is weird. if you launch dummy missiles, it will trigger a massive launch by india. How do you benefit being annihilated in under 5 minutes?

You and many pakistanis here seem to think the you got all day and nobody is responding on the other side. after your very first launch...all hell breaks lose on you .... your remaining 300 odd nuclear missiles wont get time to launch thereafter.

 

[Alpha1]

This is for all pakistanis because they seem to think the nuclear threshold is the immediate threshold to be used by the pakistani military. You do realize that- to cross that threshold India would have to be approaching your capital and that capital would have to be near decimated about to be run over.

IMHO the Red line is way before that, In some peoples opinion it is the Indus valley.
There are many other types of threshold.

They way I would envision any conflict is targeted attacks on terror camps by the indians and quick draw back. That is the limit to the " war" with pakistan.

Surgical strikes?
Pakistan's conventional forces can counter that and there is no need to bring NUKES into this equation

 

[faithfulguy]

Numbers of Video available on youtube regarding the CEP of Cruize missile brahmos. Can you please watch that prior to posting your BS? One video worth more than 100 post. now watch and tell whether it is Zero CEP or not.

If its a anti-ship missile, it really cannot miss too much, can't it. Especially its a smaller ship. Even for a anti-ship missile, so CEP do not apply to anti-ship missile.

As for missile that require GPS, its the error of GPS signal that determine the accuracy.

But we are talking about ballistic missile here. Can India achieve CEP of zero for K4?