New provinces and provincial autonomy

[Creder]

punjab ..punj = 5.. aab = pani = rivers =>land of five rivers

kitnay our tukray kero gay is kay

 

[sparklingway]

Sparkles your like a senior member here yar, its our responsibility to cap this internet propaganda about dividing Pakistan into a gazillion provinces. The entire new-provinces hoop-lah is just a political sham, and we have already enough things to worry about.

Administrative efficiency requires new provincial demarcations. It is not possible to efficiently manage Punjab, both politically and administratively, with a population of 92 million (citing China and/or India won't work here as we are dealing within our own context).

I don't understand how new political demarcations classify as "breaking up Pakistan". While there might be some people having sinister motives doing such propaganda, the majority of the people believe that it would bring an improvement in administration of funds and allow a more focused and direct approach towards social welfare and development.

As far as I see it, those who believe that this is some propaganda or there is no need for creation of new provinces are either totalitarian fascists who seek to control everything (like dictators) or they believe that somehow creation of new provinces will break down the federation.

Pakistan is widely linguistic and ethnically diverse and even then we get together under the Green and White flag. I have never seen anybody worshiping a provincial flag. Provinces on administrative not ethinc/linguistic lines would strengthen the federation and help towards creating a stronger, unified, progressive social welfare state that Jinnah dreamed of.

What can be argued, that this is somehow not the time for such policies as it will inevitably lead to political point scoring. As far as I see it, this is a country not a person and nations can surely multitask. We've been fighting a war while managing our political mess at the same time. If the federal government remains focused by giving this task to a committee like the PCCR, the rest of the nation can remain at work while a group of people join their heads to bring the best out of all ideas.

The cost of this process would inevitably be huge (I read something like 4 billion for NWFP -> KP on stationary and plaques etc.) but it would be upto the federal government to determine the cost payoff and financial feasibility of such a measure. Political and social payoffs are huge.

 

[Creder]

Administrative efficiency requires new provincial demarcations. It is not possible to efficiently manage Punjab, both politically and administratively, with a population of 92 million (citing China and/or India won't work here as we are dealing within our own context).

I don't understand how new political demarcations classify as "breaking up Pakistan". While there might be some people having sinister motives doing such propaganda, the majority of the people believe that it would bring an improvement in administration of funds and allow a more focused and direct approach towards social welfare and development.

As far as I see it, those who believe that this is some propaganda or there is no need for creation of new provinces are either totalitarian fascists who seek to control everything (like dictators) or they believe that somehow creation of new provinces will break down the federation.

Pakistan is widely linguistic and ethnic diverse and even then we get together under the Green and White flag. I have never seen anybody worshiping a provincial flag. Provinces on administrative not ethinc/linguistic lines would strengthen the federation and help towards creating a stronger, unified, progressive social welfare state that Jinnah dreamed of.

Thats exactly the opposite of what will happen, provinces wont be divided on the basis of administrative agenda, rather the politicians will strive to divide them on ethnic basis. Look at the crisis in hazaara or khyber pakhtunkwa, did you see a renaming based on ethnicity or was it for the ease of administraion ?

Bottom line is people feel stronly about their ethnicity and ethnicity not administration will be the basis of any such division. The formula that works is to divide the province into "divisions", the model that was in-place till 2000. That works the best to ease administration, cutting up provinces on ethnic line will only give rise to more internal conflict, they will fight over meager resources and the centre will get even weaker.

 

[sparklingway]

Thats exactly the opposite of what will happen, provinces wont be divided on the basis of administrative agenda, rather the politicians will strive to divide them on ethnic basis. Look at the crisis in hazaara or khyber pakhtunkwa, did you see a renaming based on ethnicity or was it for the ease of administraion ?

Bottom line is people feel stronly about their ethnicity and ethnicity not administration will be the basis of any such division. The formula that works is to divide the province into "divisions", the model that was in-place till 2000. That works the best to ease administration, cutting up provinces on ethnic line will only give rise to more internal conflict, they will fight over meager resources and the centre will get even weaker.

Divisions were too many in number, 26 is way too many. The map I posted above is unique for it seeks to demarcate on a regional basis where ethnic and linguistic cohesion is present and does not focus on creating equally populated/equally sized provinces at the same time.

I do not deny that political point scoring will push towards ethnic demarcations but Punjab being split up into 3 or 4 provinces does not destroy linguistic cohesion. People in Rawalpindi speak both Potohari and Punjabi. Come to central Punjab and the sole language is Punjabi and the southern areas speak Saraiki, almost exclusively (many speak Punjabi though). Splitting up isn't a bad idea. Just like the PCCR, a group of people led by a wise, sane and honourable person will surely put forward realizable, manageable, feasible and non controversial recommendations.

NWFP --> KP was going to be messy, we all knew it. Hazaras have over reacted for if their sole problem was the name of the province, then they must have been living a comfortable life before. This might just be a catalyst for further reforms, which are not necessarily bad rather they are good.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

punjab ..punj = 5.. aab = pani = rivers =>land of five rivers

kitnay our tukray kero gay is kay

Who cares? All the 'tukray' are still in Pakistan are they not? Other than that they are just administrative entities within the Pakistani Federation.

So long as they do not discriminate against people from other provinces moving around and settling wherever they wish, it should not be an issue.

On that last note though, by creating more or less homogeneous administrative units, do we not restrict the mingling of the various ethnicities?

And does that ethno-linguistic homogeneity not lead to issues later on as natural migration occurs and different ethnicities settle in what were previously homogeneous provinces?

 

[Bane Blade]

Too much devolution will make the bureaucrats feel uncomfartable and the got rid of the nazim system because of the same reasons too much people power will hurt the establishment

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

From an administrative standpoint I would argue that the division of Punjab and Baluchistan (Size) are the only ones that make sense.

Dividing Sindh without Land Reforms into Urdu and Sindhi speaking provinces will be a nightmare for the people in the Sindh province given that the local Wadera's already hold so much sway.

Taking parts from NWFP and Punjab (and later Azad Kashmir) to form a Hazara province seems interesting as well, but is it necessary? Is there discrimination and significant disparity in terms of development in the Hazara areas vs the Pashtun areas?

 

[Bane Blade]

you mean expanding Baluchistan? surely we would have to divide by populus and not by land size

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

you mean expanding Baluchistan? surely we would have to divide by populus and not by land size

I was talking about dividing it. Geographically it is an extremely large province with many remote areas.

Dividing it into more provinces might result in more towns (capitals of the new provinces) and greater migration and settlers that might also ease the population pressure on the other provinces.

My thought process on this is still at a nascent stage - I haven't thought through all the possible issues related to such an approach.

One such issue could be the creation of a province that has no natural resources or land viable for agriculture - then you just have a very poor province with no reasons to encourage migration, which will be dependent upon the Center for funding. Then again, such cons might be offset by investment in infrastructure and a knowledge based economy and creating an investment friendly climate, attracting educated Pakistanis from all over Pakistan.

Sort of like replicating Karachi on a larger scale.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

I was talking about dividing it. Geographically it is an extremely large province with many remote areas.

Dividing it into more provinces might result in more towns (capitals of the new provinces) and greater migration and settlers that might also ease the population pressure on the other provinces.

My thought process on this is still at a nascent stage - I haven't thought through all the possible issues related to such an approach.

One such issue could be the creation of a province that has no natural resources or land viable for agriculture - then you just have a very poor province with no reasons to encourage migration, which will be dependent upon the Center for funding. Then again, such cons might be offset by investment in infrastructure and a knowledge based economy and creating an investment friendly climate, attracting educated Pakistanis from all over Pakistan.

Sort of like replicating Karachi on a larger scale.

Dividing it into more provinces might result in more towns (capitals of the new provinces) and greater migration and settlers that might also ease the population pressure on the other provinces.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

This thread should be marked sticky. It is "the most" useful thread on PDF.
I mean PDF is about Pakistan so what other thread can be more useful other than this one. If we make more provinces based on rationality not on politics than sure it is a huge step forward and a great success.

I think senior members should provide in depth analysis about making new provinces in Pakistan.

Personally, I will be the first one to stand for it.

 

[Zee-Gen]

The biggest problem of Pakistan is not the smaller provinces to administrate effectively, but the decision makers who, most of the time, are/were the people involved in making decisions, which they had no concern in any circumstances……..or involved in making decisions just for the sake of decision making……..recent NWFP name changing practice is an example……..future name of Hazara division, in an ideal case, had to be decided by people living there and not by Peshawar and Lahore based parties……..in my view, if the issue be dealt with Jirga then neither any political disruption occur nor violence……in any case, always let the locals decide what is good and bad for them……

In fact, a better management can easily handle the existing provinces effectively…...increasing the number of provinces will also increase the burden on economy….more ministers, more secretariats, more departments, more officers (more mouths to feed) and I am sure more political parties…..only Balochistan seems a suitable candidate for this idea or “Saraiki” area of Punjab……!!!!

@Sparklingway

The idea of Potohar with capital in Abbotabad seems unique and interesting to me, for most of us have been treating this topic by trying to carve one or two new provinces from inside a province. This Potohar suggestion merges Rawalpindi, Attock, Abbotabad and Hazara. Would be beneficial as most people here share the same languages (Hindko, Potohari and Punjabi being dominant).

In this case, Rawalpindi seems a strong candidate for capital rather than Abbottabad and this decision will not serve the purpose and will cause ethnic-specific societal turbulence.

Azad Kashmir can be added to this province later after its eventual status is decided. Mirpuri, Hindko and Pahri are all similar dialects of Punjabi. This province will add together people with similar ethnic and linguistic history.

People living in Hazara ethnically are not similar to Pindi living people, but yes linguistically similarities are there.

@AnGoStIc MuSliM

Taking parts from NWFP and Punjab (and later Azad Kashmir) to form a Hazara province seems interesting as well, but is it necessary? Is there discrimination and significant disparity in terms of development in the Hazara areas vs the Pashtun areas?

Very right that is exactly my point……people living in Hazara division don’t want a separate province nor they are less developed by any standards……it’s the decision makers who think like this way…..(by the way residents of Hazara are also Pashtuns…..Hazara vs Peshawar is more appropriate comparison).

 

[waraich66]

It will increase the admin cost and level of corruption nothing else , our country need cheap power ,gas and water for agricultural and industrial growth.

We need to decrease the our non prodective expenses of government and armed forces , if we really want progress.

 

[Omar1984]

I never thought I would say this, but there is something we can learn from our neighbouring country, india.


During the Sikh uprising and demand for Khalistan, Indian government divided their Punjab state into Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, and now Indian Punjab is just a small piece of land. And now no one wants to make a separate country out of that small piece of land which is called Punjab state of India. Khalistan movement has pretty much died out in india. I know its still popular outside India like in Canada and UK.


We should do the same with Balochistan. Divide that VERY LARGE province into 5-7 smaller provinces, and also Khyber Pakhtunkhwa should be didvided too because of the unrest there by the name change, instead FATA should be united with Khyber Pakhtunkwa and the Hazara majority areas of that province should be given a separate province.


Thats all for now. Punjab and Sindh are not seeing much linguistic, ethnic, and sectarian problems as our western provinces are.

 

[waraich66]

I never thought I would say this, but there is something we can learn from our neighbouring country, india.


During the Sikh uprising and demand for Khalistan, Indian government divided their Punjab state into Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, and now Indian Punjab is just a small piece of land. And now no one wants to make a separate country out of that small piece of land which is called Punjab state of India. Khalistan movement has pretty much died out in india. I know its still popular outside India like in Canada and UK.


We should do the same with Balochistan. Divide that VERY LARGE province into 5-7 smaller provinces, and also Khyber Pakhtunkhwa should be didvided too because of the unrest there by the name change, instead FATA should be united with Khyber Pakhtunkwa and the Hazara majority areas of that province should be given a separate province.


Thats all for now. Punjab and Sindh are not seeing much linguistic, ethnic, and sectarian problems as our western provinces are.

The bonding force between all four provinces is Islam , we need to strengthen this bond by implementing shariah law .

Insurgency in FATA and NWFP is due to wrong policies of GOP , there is no any ethnic or linguistic problem in these areas , try to understand the root cause of problem.