New Navy subs potentially with electric propulsion

[Rafi]

New Navy Subs

According to what I have heard the new subs could potentially employ some new technologies. The Chinese have gotten extremely sophisticated. The "electric" propulsion and other tech is why the contract could be so big.

If not on the first vessels but subsequent units - also a VLS for ASM and also LACM.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Guess no sound for Posiden to track .......What happened to our own local production of Nuclear Submarine has been in shadows for quite some time

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMO I'm unconvinced about the high price-tag. We got the $4-5 billion figure from an analyst who gave his estimation to the Financial Times, it isn't official. KSEW had also shown mock-ups of the Hangor at IDEAS and it's basically the S26.

The Thai S26T order sits at $1.02 bn for 3 submarines (the first being $383 m but the latter two cheaper as the first will absorb support costs). So the average is $333 m per submarine. IMO we are probably looking at customized S26Ps (with LACM-integration and possibly subsystem changes), which would put the tag at a reasonable $3 bn.

Moreover, the induction cycle is relatively quick, i.e. on average of 1.5 years between each submarine. I can't see how they'll produce, test and validate new technology within that time-frame.

That said, I do think the PN will keep an eye on these new technologies, but with the aim of eventually replacing the Agosta 90Bs post-2040. In that sense, they'll need to place orders for a new ship sometime in the late 2020s, and at that time a lot of the new Chinese technology will be in full-scale production - and mature.

 

[Blue Marlin]

IMO I'm unconvinced about the high price-tag. We got the $4-5 billion figure from an analyst who gave his estimation to the Financial Times, it isn't official. KSEW had also shown mock-ups of the Hangor at IDEAS and it's basically the S26.

The Thai S26T order sits at $1.02 bn for 3 submarines (the first being $383 m but the latter two cheaper as the first will absorb support costs). So the average is $333 m per submarine. IMO we are probably looking at customized S26Ps (with LACM-integration and possibly subsystem changes), which would put the tag at a reasonable $3 bn.

Moreover, the induction cycle is relatively quick, i.e. on average of 1.5 years between each submarine. I can't see how they'll produce, test and validate new technology within that time-frame.

That said, I do think the PN will keep an eye on these new technologies, but with the aim of eventually replacing the Agosta 90Bs post-2040. In that sense, they'll need to place orders for a new ship sometime in the late 2020s, and at that time a lot of the new Chinese technology will be in full-scale production - and mature.

the Chinese showed mock ups of the s20 not the hangor, i doubt you'd be seeing models of the hangor till when its near completion or beyond. do note if you do the rookie $5 billion/8=$625 million. if you consider that and the subs would come with some form of tot which i believe the minimum offset is 35%. your looking at least ~$400 million per sub which is priced between the t-214($330million) and scorpene($450-500 million) nowadays all subs come with electric propulsion but whats more important is how the electricity is produced, diesel electric, stirling, hydrogen (mesma) or fuel cell? if the latter then is good news id imagine as its the quietest but very risky too when it comes to storing fuel.

as for lcams i expect the last 4 from pakistan will only have this capability to prevent possible back lash to the chinese. heck by that time 2028 i wont be surprised if they have a prototype nuclear reactor.

 

[war&peace]

IMO I'm unconvinced about the high price-tag. We got the $4-5 billion figure from an analyst who gave his estimation to the Financial Times, it isn't official. KSEW had also shown mock-ups of the Hangor at IDEAS and it's basically the S26.

The Thai S26T order sits at $1.02 bn for 3 submarines (the first being $383 m but the latter two cheaper as the first will absorb support costs). So the average is $333 m per submarine. IMO we are probably looking at customized S26Ps (with LACM-integration and possibly subsystem changes), which would put the tag at a reasonable $3 bn.

Moreover, the induction cycle is relatively quick, i.e. on average of 1.5 years between each submarine. I can't see how they'll produce, test and validate new technology within that time-frame.

That said, I do think the PN will keep an eye on these new technologies, but with the aim of eventually replacing the Agosta 90Bs post-2040. In that sense, they'll need to place orders for a new ship sometime in the late 2020s, and at that time a lot of the new Chinese technology will be in full-scale production - and mature.

Will these be made on ToT basis right? so any subsequent submarine should be made indigenously or the traitors and crooks sitting at the top are still planning to fill their coffers?
Ref: Agosta 90-Bs were acquired on ToT basis (thus the nation ended up paying way more than just for the boats) and now it seems all that ToT got casted into some trash can. Who is accountable for that?

While India is making nuclear subs indigenously with SLBM k-4 and k-15 and it is more ironic that it was PNS who introduced submarine in subcontinent. Face-palm !!!
If we are not going to benefit from ToT then why the leaches are sucking blood of the poor nation. Just buy the boats at normal price.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Will they be made on ToT basis right? so any subsequent submarines should be made indigenously or the traitors and crooks sitting at the top are still planning to fill their coffers?
Ref: Agosta 90-Bs were acquired on ToT basis (thus the nation ended up paying way more than just for the boats) and now it seems all that ToT got casted into some trash can. Who is accountable for that?

While India is making nuclear subs indigenously with SLBM k-4 and k-15 and it is more ironic that it was PNS who introduced submarine in subcontinent. Face-palm !!!
If we are not going benefit from ToT then why the leaches are sucking blood of the poor nation?

I think the ToT this time around is deeper than the Agosta 90B, which basically involved assembling kits from France and doing integration work (which is now proving useful in terms of mid-life upgrading them). It's possible that KSEW will manufacture the Hangors more independently, but things such as high-grade steel, propulsion, etc, will still come from China. It's just that KSEW might get enough ToT to understand how materials and subsystems are manufactured into submarines, which will be useful in the future should it take on more ambitious projects.

the Chinese showed mock ups of the s20 not the hangor, i doubt you'd be seeing models of the hangor till when its near completion or beyond. do note if you do the rookie $5 billion/8=$625 million. if you consider that and the subs would come with some form of tot which i believe the minimum offset is 35%. your looking at least ~$400 million per sub which is priced between the t-214($330million) and scorpene($450-500 million) nowadays all subs come with electric propulsion but whats more important is how the electricity is produced, diesel electric, stirling, hydrogen (mesma) or fuel cell? if the latter then is good news id imagine as its the quietest but very risky too when it comes to storing fuel.

as for lcams i expect the last 4 from pakistan will only have this capability to prevent possible back lash to the chinese. heck by that time 2028 i wont be surprised if they have a prototype nuclear reactor.

I was referring to this ... IIRC it was at KSEW's stand.

 

[war&peace]

I think the ToT this time around is deeper than the Agosta 90B, which basically involved assembling kits from France and doing integration work (which is now proving useful in terms of mid-life upgrading them). It's possible that KSEW will manufacture the Hangors more independently, but things such as high-grade steel, propulsion, etc, will still come from China. It's just that KSEW might get enough ToT to understand how materials and subsystems are manufactured into submarines, which will be useful in the future should it take on more ambitious projects.

I wish and hope but I'm not very optimistic since there is still no such indication from PNS at least in the public sphere and I really don't consider the project itself to develop a surface or subsurface vessel to be a secret.
When JF-17 was developing, the whole world knew about it under different names like Super-7, FC-1 etc and PAF has already announce its intentions to develop the next gen (5th gen.) A/C and already laid foundation for the infrastructure required for it.

But I don't know if any such project exists in the roadmaps of PNS.
Furthermore, for complete development we need to develop R&D facilities for producing high end and special purpose materials and plethora of other industries but the thick heads sitting at top can't understand it.

 

[ziaulislam]

Will these be made on ToT basis right? so any subsequent submarine should be made indigenously or the traitors and crooks sitting at the top are still planning to fill their coffers?
Ref: Agosta 90-Bs were acquired on ToT basis (thus the nation ended up paying way more than just for the boats) and now it seems all that ToT got casted into some trash can. Who is accountable for that?

While India is making nuclear subs indigenously with SLBM k-4 and k-15 and it is more ironic that it was PNS who introduced submarine in subcontinent. Face-palm !!!
If we are not going benefit from ToT then why the leaches are sucking blood of the poor nation?

none of armed forces branches have ever focused on indigenous production, a famous quote from Ayub was"we will buy nukes what's the worry"
the only exception to some extent is the air force recently who have focused on indigenous solutions
otherwise, you would have seen JV/indigenous efforts in departments like tanks, rifles, and helios

 

[war&peace]

none of armed forces branches have ever focused on indigenous production, a famous quote from Ayub was"we will buy nukes what's the worry"
the only exception to some extent is the air force recently who have focused on indigenous solutions
otherwise, you would have seen JV/indigenous efforts in departments like tanks, rifles, and helios

Well, of course the picture is not all hunky-dory but still there has been quite a lot of indigenous development in nuclear program, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, UAVs and UCAVs etc.

But what is totally missing is the vision, policy and will for an integrated development that spans all the sectors: academia, R&D orgs and the industry. Furthermore, the monopoly of the state-owned industry on the defence production. And that's because we have been lead by incompetent, selfish, corrupt, inferiority complexed and short-sighted military boots and crooked politicians.

 

[ziaulislam]

Well, of course the picture is not all hunky-dory but still there has been quite a lot of indigenous development in nuclear program, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, UAVs and UCAVs etc.

But what is totally missing is the vision, policy and will for an integrated development that spans all the sectors: academia, R&D orgs and the industry. Furthermore, the monopoly of the state-owned industry on the defence production. And that's because we have been lead by incompetent, selfish, corrupt, inferiority complexed and short-sighted military boots and crooked politicians.

most of this was out of necessity(nuclear program, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, UAVs and UCAVs etc.)

 

[war&peace]

most of this was out of necessity(nuclear program, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, UAVs and UCAVs etc.)

Yes, but the end result is that we have some infrastructure, skilled manpower and, hence, a starting point. There are, IMHO, following paths to follow to achieve a high degree of self reliance:

1. Original research in applied and fundamental sciences & technology (West, Russia, Japan and South Korea)
2. Reverse engineering and copying (Chinese model)
3. Joint ventures and co-developments (Pakistan, India, developing countries)
4. Total technology transfer (developing countries)

A development policy will have a mix of all four. You cannot achieve full freedom and reach the top echelons of technologically advanced nations if you lack (1). However to catch up with the world and also to save money (2, 3 & 4) are equally important and have demonstrated their usefulness.

BTW, all of the developed nations (including West, USA, Russia) have followed these paths (2, 3, 4) to varying degrees at some point.

Pakistan should start with paths (3, 4) while developing path (1) in parallel with path (2) wherever necessary.

 

[CriticalThought]

none of armed forces branches have ever focused on indigenous production, a famous quote from Ayub was"we will buy nukes what's the worry"
the only exception to some extent is the air force recently who have focused on indigenous solutions
otherwise, you would have seen JV/indigenous efforts in departments like tanks, rifles, and helios

If you watch the recent documentary on HIT, they are doing a high level of indigenous production of AK-1 and recently signed an MoU for engine production as well. There is also the LSR. And they said there are many other projects they can't talk about.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I wish and hope but I'm not very optimistic since there is still no such indication from PNS at least in the public sphere and I really don't consider the project itself to develop a surface or subsurface vessel to be a secret.
When JF-17 was developing, the whole world knew about it under different names like Super-7, FC-1 etc and PAF has already announce its intentions to develop the next gen (5th gen.) A/C and already laid foundation for the infrastructure required for it.

But I don't know if any such project exists in the roadmaps of PNS.
Furthermore, for complete development we need to develop R&D facilities for producing high end and special purpose materials and plethora of other industries but the thick heads sitting at top can't understand it.

There's an indication ... via KSEW. KSEW is making key infrastructure purchases (e.g. Syncrolift, 13 in-land work stations, etc) that will enable it to engage in proper manufacturing work. It's been described in the MoDP report:

SHIP LIFT AND TRANSFER SYSTEM

The project envisages enhancement and upgrade over existing Ship Building and Ship Repair capacities of Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works, by introducing new technologies and state of the art machineries and systems.

The new Ship Lift system’s 125 meters long rigid steel platform, connected with 30 winches will have capacity to lift any vessel up to 8,000 tonnes out of sea and place them on one of the 13 custom built repair stations on land side, through an elaborately rail-linked Transfer System.

Ship Lift and Transfer system will increase business capacity and efficiency of ship turnover by three times.

Transfer of Technology has been integral part of project concept and maintenance of the system will be ensured indigenously through well trained organic teams. Overall the installation of the system has been determined as a paradigm shift for KS&EW as new level of efficiencies would enable generation of higher revenue at lower cost, while also supporting all present and future national maritime and defense objectives within shipyard’s capacity range. The work generated by enhancing the ship building and repair capacity will out flow to the public and private industrial sectors, thereby providing stimulus to local industry and increase GDP as well as bringing new employment opportunities.

Submarines construction and launching will also be possible for the first time in the country after completion of the project. Accommodating demands of foreign commercial ships and warships will now be possible due to expanded ship repair capacity at Karachi Shipyard. This will become a source of earning of significant amount of foreign exchange.​

 

[war&peace]

There's an indication ... via KSEW. KSEW is making key infrastructure purchases (e.g. Syncrolift, 13 in-land work stations, etc) that will enable it to engage in proper manufacturing work. It's been described in the MoDP report:

SHIP LIFT AND TRANSFER SYSTEM

The project envisages enhancement and upgrade over existing Ship Building and Ship Repair capacities of Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works, by introducing new technologies and state of the art machineries and systems.

The new Ship Lift system’s 125 meters long rigid steel platform, connected with 30 winches will have capacity to lift any vessel up to 8,000 tonnes out of sea and place them on one of the 13 custom built repair stations on land side, through an elaborately rail-linked Transfer System.

Ship Lift and Transfer system will increase business capacity and efficiency of ship turnover by three times.

Transfer of Technology has been integral part of project concept and maintenance of the system will be ensured indigenously through well trained organic teams. Overall the installation of the system has been determined as a paradigm shift for KS&EW as new level of efficiencies would enable generation of higher revenue at lower cost, while also supporting all present and future national maritime and defense objectives within shipyard’s capacity range. The work generated by enhancing the ship building and repair capacity will out flow to the public and private industrial sectors, thereby providing stimulus to local industry and increase GDP as well as bringing new employment opportunities.

Submarines construction and launching will also be possible for the first time in the country after completion of the project. Accommodating demands of foreign commercial ships and warships will now be possible due to expanded ship repair capacity at Karachi Shipyard. This will become a source of earning of significant amount of foreign exchange.​

Thank you sir... that really made my night I'll be dreaming and snorting out large cruisers and nuclear subs (except that I don't snort)

Though I still wish they announce concrete projects.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thank you sir... that really made my night I'll be dreaming and snorting out large cruisers and nuclear subs (except that I don't snort)

Though I still wish they announce concrete projects.

They did (in regards to the infrastructure). It'll take time to construct it, but it's in the process:

http://www.ttsgroup.com/Pressroom/P...-contract-for-Syncrolift-and-transfer-system/

TTS Group signs historical contract for Syncrolift® and transfer system 22.06.2017​

Norwegian headquartered TTS Group has today signed a new contract for a 9.000 tonne Syncrolift® (ship lift) and a transfer system with Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works Limited (KSEW) in Pakistan. The total order value is approx. 250 MNOK.

- This is a historical contract. Without comparison, this is the largest Syncrolift® contract we have ever signed. Also compared to Norwegian exports to Pakistan the contract amount is significant. According to available statistics it is 2.5 times the size of the average, annual Norwegian exports to Pakistan, says CEO of TTS Group ASA, Toril Eidesvik.

The equipment deliveries for KSEW will take place in first half of 2019. Design and development will be carried out in Norway, while manufacturing is done in Europe and China.

Significant interest in Syncrolift® technology

Eidesvik appreciates that TTS Syncrolift, a subsidiary of TTS Group, once again proves to be a leading ship lift supplier. Over the years, the subsidiary has gained a 70% market share along with stable and positive earnings.

- We see a high interest for our products all over the world. Within a few years, our company has delivered Syncrolift® to countries as varied as South Korea, Morocco, Kuwait, Turkmenistan, Vietnam, Brazil and Peru. In addition, we see good opportunities in front of us, says Rolf-Atle Tomassen, General Manager of TTS Syncrolift.

Tomassen explains that TTS Syncrolift's strategy is to follow the customer’s strategy, i.e. to minimize docking time, or rather maximize sailing time for ships. Already Syncrolift® and transfer system does this to a certain extent, but the new business area FastDocking™ products will further complement this strategy to support customers in reducing their delivery time.

Replacing traditional ship docking methods

Syncrolift® is the TTS brand name for a ship lift. The Syncrolift® is essentially a large elevator for lifting ships from sea level to land level. The ship is then moved off the elevator and into a dedicated workstation, by using advanced hydraulic transfer trollies.

A Syncrolift®, as opposed to traditional dry docking using graving or floating drydocks, can easily handle 10 ships for repair on dry land. A drydock typically handles one ship at a time. Weight is in not really a limitation for our Syncrolift® technology. In a recent project, TTS handled weights up to 25.000 tonne.

- This gives our customers a volume and efficiency advantage compared to other shipyards using drydocks, Tomassen says. - In a period where the shipyards are consolidating and looking for cost effectiveness through volume, our technology complements this strategy. Our own estimate is that ship lift's is the preferred investment choice in more than 60% of all new investments made in docking/launching facilities.

One of top three largest

TTS Group is an international corporation, with subsidiaries in 14 countries, providing handling solutions and access systems for the marine and offshore industries.

TTS has built a strong market position, based on a diversified product portfolio, in its core shipping markets. The Group is one of the top three largest suppliers worldwide in its specialized market segments.

With a worldwide workforce of around 1000, TTS has more than 50 years of experience in the maritime industry. The Company, with headquarters in Bergen, Norway is listed on Oslo Stock Exchange.​