Navy's MiG29 superior to IAF's Sukhoi 30

[dbc]

No no.. this is not about Zhuk-ME. It's about the Range of BARS. Some people think BARS has a range of 200km for 5m2. That figure is way over blown.

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Just did some calculations.

For 5m2, BARS detection range is 159km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 106km


APG-68 (V)9 (Onboard PAF F-16 block 52)
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
Max Track for 10 sqm RCS - 95 km
Max Track for 15 sqm RCS - 105 km

Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105km
Max Detection for 10 sqm RCS - 125km
Max Detection for 15 sqm RCS - 138km
Max Detection for 20 sqm RCS - 149km

Range isn't that important, look at what Chogy a former USAF F-15 pilot had to say about detection range.

Radar detection range is definitely overrated, IMO. Far more important than range is the ability to sort, to break out and target individual entities within a gaggle, and that relies more on beamwidth (usually, but not always, a function of antenna diameter), than it does on raw emitted power.

According to Chogy range resolution is far more important than detection range. Examine the Zhuk MSFE brochure posted earlier, at maximum detection range the Zhuk MSFE radar is unable to resolve two or more aircraft's separated by 300m or less. In other words, one or more bogey's flying closer than 300m will appear as one (see below graphic).

Contrast that with the APG-68's resolution cell of a 100 ft(30 m) at maximum detection range. In any case, the PAF F-16's will always engage with Erieye, ground radar and SAM support this represents a formidable defense against anything the IAF currently fields.

 

[Dash]

Contrast that with the APG-68's resolution cell of a 100 ft(30 m) at maximum detection range. In any case, the PAF F-16's will always engage with Erieye, ground radar and SAM support this represents a formidable defense against anything the IAF currently fields.

Even that will be same for IAF with Phalcon and other you have mentioned....

 

[dbc]

Even that will be same for IAF with Phalcon and other you have mentioned....

yes for sure, from what I hear the PAF does not intend to venture into Indian airspace. The MKI will be unbeatable in Indian airspace backed by the Phalcon, Green Pine, S300 and assorted defensive hardware.

 

[CONNAN]

if i am not wrong i believe we need planes like B2 and F22 to sneak into the enemies airspace get a kill and get out alive

 

[anathema]

if i am not wrong i believe we need planes like B2 and F22 to sneak into the enemies airspace get a kill and get out alive

We probably will never ever get planes like B2 or F22 (Japan and UK havent got !!) but, what we can get is --

Planes like growler which is a dedicated EW plane. This kind of planes will help a lot in SEAD missions.

 

[letsbefriends]

why r we jst talkin abt radars guys,lets compare su-30 mki and mig 29 on the basis of
no. of hard points
range
manueverability
EW
weapon load

in all a complete head to toe comparison

 

[sancho]

why r we jst talkin abt radars guys,lets compare su-30 mki and mig 29 on the basis of
no. of hard points
range
manueverability
EW
weapon load

in all a complete head to toe comparison

Because there are not many fields where the Mig 29K is comparable. Be it weaponload, or stations, range, EW... it is always inferior. Only in RCS it has some advantages and possibly in manouverability, but that's it pretty much.

 

[sancho]

I think we have reached a conclusion.

No, but we getting closer

They have given you the RCS, as 3sqm for 80-100km. Nothing can be more clearer than that.

Yes and I don't said anything against that figure, but it said only 140Km for large aircrafts, while Bars is stated with up to 400Km for similar aircrafts (bombers are bigger aircrafts, the others are ground attack fighters, or fighter bombers).
Here you can compare it with the Zhuk MSF too:

Against a large target such as a bomber or AWACS aircraft detection range comfortably exceeds 300km.

As you can see the Zhuk MSF is much more comparable to Bars as the N001.

That's what I'm saying, 140km against a 3m2 RCS is very believable for N-011m Bars!

And now we really get closer to the conclusion, because as you stated above, 140Km for a 3m2 RCS target could be possible and the Zhuk MSFE with similar diameter as Bars and similar detection ranges for bigger aircrafts, can detect targets of 5m2 at 170 - 180Km ranges, Bars should have comparable ranges for such a target too right?

No compare that, with one of my earlier posts:

So several different sources, from different countries claims the same about it's capabilities, the point for you is the 140Km range, but without saying for what RCS. If that's the range for a 1-3 m2 target, up to 200Km ranges for 3-5 m2 targets are still possible, also 330Km for bigger targets like a Su 27.

So your conclusion fits now to what I said before, but now please check what you said at the begining of the discussion:

MKI's radar range is hyped up. N-011 BARS radar range is 140km for a 5m2 target. For Mig-29k's Zhuk-ME, it's 120km for a 5m2 target. So it's pretty close when you factor in RCS.

So it's more like this right?

Zhuk ME - 120Km for a 5m2 target
Zhuk MSF - 170-180 for a 5m2 target
Bars - around 180Km for a 5m2 target (most sources say up to 200Km, or 100nm = 185Km) and the 140Km in the brochure are most likely for 3m2 targets and that gives MKI a clear advantage in radar range over the Mig 29K, or SMTs!

 

[Ping]

Thank you for the source, I will keep looking.

Yes, please do.

According to Chogy range resolution is far more important than detection range. Examine the Zhuk MSFE brochure posted earlier, at maximum detection range the Zhuk MSFE radar is unable to resolve two or more aircraft's separated by 300m or less. In other words, one or more bogey's flying closer than 300m will appear as one (see below graphic).



Contrast that with the APG-68's resolution cell of a 100 ft(30 m) at maximum detection range. In any case, the PAF F-16's will always engage with Erieye, ground radar and SAM support this represents a formidable defense against anything the IAF currently fields.

That's probably due to advanced signal processors. U.S is the leader in this field afterall. So it's not surprising.
If the detection range is higher then it naturally means the guy is able to get the info that there is an enemy out there and can caution his strike group to be cautious, so that there isn't any nasty surprises. It can give you an idea of where the threats are, if the awacs isn't in the area.

Yes and I don't said anything against that figure, but it said only 140Km for large aircrafts, while Bars is stated with up to 400Km for similar aircrafts (bombers are bigger aircrafts, the others are ground attack fighters, or fighter bombers).
Here you can compare it with the Zhuk MSF too:
As you can see the Zhuk MSF is much more comparable to Bars as the N001.

Like I said, "large bomber" is very vague. A Tu-95's rcs is lesser than an IL-76 or even a Blackjack. Zhuk-MSF says a "large target". A Tu-16 is also a large Target. These kinds of vague phrases should be avoided at best.

And now we really get closer to the conclusion, because as you stated above, 140Km for a 3m2 RCS target could be possible and the Zhuk MSFE with similar diameter as Bars and similar detection ranges for bigger aircrafts, can detect targets of 5m2 at 170 - 180Km ranges, Bars should have comparable ranges for such a target too right?

No compare that, with one of my earlier posts:

Except, BARS has far less power compared to Zhuk-MSFE. It's almost 50% less. If anything, I'm surprised our pakistani friends are not arguing that 140km is for a 5m2 target, and not 3m2.

So your conclusion fits now to what I said before, but now please check what you said at the begining of the discussion:
So it's more like this right?

Zhuk ME - 120Km for a 5m2 target
Zhuk MSF - 170-180 for a 5m2 target
Bars - around 180Km for a 5m2 target (most sources say up to 200Km, or 100nm = 185Km) and the 140Km in the brochure are most likely for 3m2 targets and that gives MKI a clear advantage in radar range over the Mig 29K, or SMTs!

I've been saying that for sometime now. I assumed 140km for 5m2 because rosobo has given all the ranges with 5m2. But later a 140km for 3m2 was not out of the ordinary considering the range for 5m2 will only be 19km more. It's not 185km, but rather 159km according to the Radar-Range-RCS equation( [new RCS/old RCS]^.25 * original range= new range) , if we consider 140km is for a 3m2 rcs.

It gives the advantage in terms of radar, but taking into account the aircrafts' unofficial RCS, Mig-29k wins by a slight margin.

 

[sancho]

Like I said, "large bomber" is very vague. A Tu-95's rcs is lesser than an IL-76 or even a Blackjack. Zhuk-MSF says a "large target". A Tu-16 is also a large Target. These kinds of vague phrases should be avoided at best.

As I quoted, they said such as a bomber or AWACS, so it should be precise enough right?

Except, BARS has far less power compared to Zhuk-MSFE. It's almost 50% less.

Did you noticed that the early N011 (not M) has also more power than the upgraded version?

N011 Mechanically scanned 960mm planar array antenna, ± 85° coverage. Said to be heavier than the N001. Uses a multimode wideband TWT transmitter with peak power output of 8 kW, and average of 2 kW. It features a low noise UHF input amplifier, and full digital signal processing using reprogrammable digital computers. Tough requirements, to track 20 targets and engage 8 simultaneously over a wide area, proved impossible to achieve with a mechanically scanned antenna. Initial versions proved able to track 13 aerial targets and engage four, which with further development could be extended to 15 and 6 respectively. It has five air-to-ground and four maritime modes. The maximum search range for large air targets such as airborne early warning and control aircraft is 400km, 140km against a head-on fighter-class target, 65km tail-on.

The N011M fitted to the Su-30MKI was the first type, but in testing the passive phased array proved unable to be electronically steered greater than 40° without unacceptable degredation of performance. Therefore scanning limits are reduced to ±70° (±30° mechanically, ±40° electronically) in azimuth and ±40° in elevation.

Peak power output is 4-5kW, average power output is 1.2kW.

But both are given with the same ranges, so it must have been improved for same performance with less power consumption right? That's why I said, Bars is pretty comparable to Zhuk MSF and I don't see why we should take a lower radar range to account.

for 5m2 will only be 19km more. It's not 185km, but rather 159km according to the Radar-Range-RCS equation( [new RCS/old RCS]^.25 * original range= new range) , if we consider 140km is for a 3m2 rcs.

Can you explain how you calculated those fugures?

 

[Solomon2]

The MiG29 has gotten a very bad rep for crashes over the past few years. It's gotten to the point where, regardless of performance, Sukhoi looks much better by comparison - safer for organizers of air shows, anyway.

 

[Ping]

As I quoted, they said such as a bomber or AWACS, so it should be precise enough right?

What such bomber?
Like I said, "large bomber" is very vague. A Tu-95's rcs is lesser than an IL-76 or even a Blackjack. Zhuk-MSF says a "large target". A Tu-16 is also a large Target. These kinds of vague phrases should be avoided at best.

Did you noticed that the early N011 (not M) has also more power than the upgraded version?
But both are given with the same ranges, so it must have been improved for same performance with less power consumption right? That's why I said, Bars is pretty comparable to Zhuk MSF and I don't see why we should take a lower radar range to account.

How can the M version improve for less power generated in the TWtube, and having the same signal processor as the earlier version? On what basis are you saying this? They never gave the rcs for the earlier version. Maybe the earlier Bars has a 140km for 3m2, while the newer one is 140km for 5m2. But the earlier BARS could have been unreliable due to low MTBF. Looks like BARS range keeps getting lower and lower.

BARS has low power as well as lower signal processing capability to the latest Zhuk-MSFE. It's a double whammy. I'm again beginning to think 140km is for 5m2. It's a very real possibility. As said before, it's only a 19km difference. So it also goes backwards as well. Maybe my earlier assumption regarding rosobo giving specs of 5m2 was right afterall.

Just substitute the range and rcs numbers in the formula to get the range.

The MiG29 has gotten a very bad rep for crashes over the past few years. It's gotten to the point where, regardless of performance, Sukhoi looks much better by comparison - safer for organizers of air shows, anyway.

What? Where is the attrition rate to support this? And I suppose you haven't seen sukhois' crashes in airshows.

 

[sancho]

@ Ping

As I said be it Bars, or Zhuk MSF, both are claimed with similar detection ranges and by checking once again all sources we provided, I still don't see any real reason why we should believe, that the up to 200Km detection for fighter size targets, shouldn't be real.

We have several sources from several origins that confirms:

- up to 400Km detection range for bigger targets like bombers, or AWACS aircrafts
- around 300Km detection range for a heavy class fighter like the Su 27 (RCS between 15 and 20m2)
- around 200Km (often also 100nm) tracking range for fighter size targets (RCS 5m2)

so if the 140Km detection can only be for smaller targets and even the ausairpower graphic (~80nm = 148Km for RCS 3m2), as well as the vayu sena site that you don't like confirms this:

A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km.

So these numbers and the differences in RCS are quiet possible, which you also stated before, whereas the 160Km for RCS 5m2 is your own calculation and is not proven by any source yet. So as long as there are no more precise sources available, these figures are reliable to me.

 

[Ping]

Why are you keeping on repeating the same old thing again & again? Repeating the same thing doesn't make it more believable. Those ranges never mentioned under what circumstances. Only a fanboy who can't accept the truth, would reject solid official RCS numbers, and claim ranges for vague large targets like "bomber" or "awacs" which ranges from Tu-95, Tu-160, Il-76, Erieye, KLJ-200 & A-50.

And again I'm repeating:
All those sources claim that during a test, doesn't even mention how long or what was the status of su-27(whether it was loaded or not) when it was detected. Some of the sources(aus air power) are absolute crap. It seems the non-fanboy aviation community disregards whatever they say as Hogwash, which is not very surprising.

I guess for a fanboy, another vayusena fanboy site is adequate. That site claims F-16, which has lower RCS than a Mig-21 is detected earlier. lol

And for gods sakes, that isn't my formula, that's the standard formula for calculation of new range.