Navy's MiG29 superior to IAF's Sukhoi 30

[Ping]

Maybe it's the old Soviet standard. Current brochures only mention 5m2 or 3m2. There isn't much difference between 2.5 and 3 anyway.

 

[sancho]

It was during a test. They never mention how long did the detection last nor did it mention about the status of Su-27. It was just an incident during a test, not the official specs. Specs are something, which can stand scrutiny of the buyer nations. Any buyer will first test if the specs given by the manufacture are correct before buying. So figures given in Specs are more accurate & truthful.

But if it was able to detect such a fighter during the test, why should we think that the final version would be inferior?
Also it should be clear, that even the specs given to the public are not 100% true, because the real figures are classified.

The Vayusena & other websites took that statement and passed it off as the official specs.

Come on, that's speculation only.

But I think this may help:

"N001 has a search range of 80-100km against a 3 sq m RCS target in a headon engagement, 140km against a large bomber.

Now see the difference:

N011 Mechanically scanned 960mm planar array antenna... ...The maximum search range for large air targets such as airborne early warning and control aircraft is 400km, 140km against a head-on fighter-class target, 65km tail-on.

If the 011 has such an improvement in search range for bigger aircrafts, we should expect similar for fighter class targets too right?

Also compare this:

N001 - 80 to 100Km against RCS 3m2
ME - 120Km against RCS 5m2

And the N011 is an improved version of N001!


Btw, that's an interesting discussion!

 

[Ping]

But if it was able to detect such a fighter during the test, why should we think that the final version would be inferior?
Also it should be clear, that even the specs given to the public are not 100% true, because the real figures are classified.

What makes you think the test wasn't with a final version itself?
Comeon, specs are specs, and even if it is a secret then the same goes for all other radars as well. If you can't trust specs, you can't trust anything. and the whole point of having a defence forum becomes invalid.

Come on, that's speculation only.

Then how do you explain how they got the data?

If the 011 has such an improvement in search range for bigger aircrafts, we should expect similar for fighter class targets too right?

"Large bomber" seems very vague!! Aircrafts such as prop driven tu-95 can be called as a large bomber as well. Maybe even a Su-24! They have given you the RCS, as 3sqm for 80-100km. Nothing can be more clearer than that.

N001 - 80 to 100Km against RCS 3m2
ME - 120Km against RCS 5m2

And the N011 is an improved version of N001!

That's what I'm saying, 140km against a 3m2 RCS is very believable for N-011m Bars!

Check this out. This should close the discussion:

N-011M BARS
Antennae Diameter- 1000mm
Peak power- 4-5kw
Mean power- 1.2kw
Antennae type- PESA
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Detection- 140 km for a 3m2 RCS

Zhuk-MSFE
Antennae Diameter- 980mm
Peak power- 8kw
Mean power- 2kw
Antennae type- PESA
Can Track- 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 6 Targets
Detection- 170-180 km for a 5m2 RCS
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craft/aircraft_99-102.pdf

This is the latest Radar other than Irbis!! There is more than 10 years difference between this and Bars. Bars can detect 5m2 RCS in the range of around 160km, if it can detect 3m2 RCS at 140km.

I think we have reached a conclusion.

PS: My memory is failing me. I'm not sure if the Peak power & Mean power of Zhuk-MSFE is 6 & 1.5kw or 8 & 2-3kw. But in any case, it's more than BARS!

 

[Ping]

Found it. Looks like my memory is right afterall:

 

[Sri]

Hi Ping
As far as I know Zhuk msfe was supposed to be the upgrade radar for su 27, su 30 k and its not for Migs. The one on Mig 29k is zhuk me, which is around 680mm.

so you are saying the zhuk me will be on par with zhuk msfe?
tx
Sri.

 

[Ping]

No no.. this is not about Zhuk-ME. It's about the Range of BARS. Some people think BARS has a range of 200km for 5m2. That figure is way over blown.

-------

Just did some calculations.

For 5m2, BARS detection range is 159km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 106km


APG-68 (V)9 (Onboard PAF F-16 block 52)
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
Max Track for 10 sqm RCS - 95 km
Max Track for 15 sqm RCS - 105 km

Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105km
Max Detection for 10 sqm RCS - 125km
Max Detection for 15 sqm RCS - 138km
Max Detection for 20 sqm RCS - 149km

 

[Ping]

The RCS of Su-30MKI is a number between 10-15m2, and the RCS of F-16 is 1-2m2. That's the unofficial fig which is going around on the net. Say a worst case scenario of a fully Air-Ground loaded MKI with an RCS of 20m2, and a fully loaded F-16 with an RCS of only 5m2. In this case, the MKI has a 10km advantage.

 

[Dash]

I was browing through Air power Australia.
Where they have stated that BARS has a 117.5 Nm range for a fighter of 1m2.
which basically translates to 217.61 Kms...

Mean time carry on guys, iam coming with more info...

 

[Ping]

^ That can't be right. They themselves released a graph which says otherwise.

--------

Scenario 2:

The RCS of a Mig-29SMT which is going around the net is 5m2. Zhuk-ME has a detection range of 120km for a 5m2 target. Lets consider a loaded Mig-29 to have an RCS of 8.5 +3.5 like a F-16 loadout. Infact it should be less since a Mig-29 can carry very low amount of ammunition compared to an F-16. But lets consider it as +3.5, same as a F-16, which comes to 8.5. So:

A Mig-29SMT will detect a 5m2 F-16 B52 at 120km
A Mig-29SMT will detect a 20m2 MKI at 170km
A F-16 B52 will detect a 8.5m2 Mig-29SMT at 120km
A Su-30MKI will detect a 8.5m2 Mig-29SMT at 181km

But this is the IAF Mig-29. The Mig-29k has reduced RCS due to composites & RAM.

Official link-
Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29.
- RAC MiG

4-5 times smaller than 5m2 = 1-1.25m2. Now this changes the ball game.


Scenario 3:
Lets consider a loaded Mig-29k with an RCS 5m2, same as an F-16 Block 52, even though Mig-29k carries less load.

Lets consider a nominally loaded Su-30MKI of an RCS of 16m2. Average of 10 & 15 = 12.5 + 3.5, like the F-16 block 52 & Mig-29.

A Mig-29k will detect a 5m2 F-16 B52 at 120km
A Mig-29k will detect a 16m2 MKI at 160.5km
A F-16 B52 will detect a 5m2 Mig-29k at 105km
A Su-30MKI will detect a 5m2 Mig-29k at 159km

Mig-29k leads in this round by a slight margin! Maybe this is why RAC MIG were saying Navy Mig-29k is superior.

 

[Dash]

^ That can't be right. They themselves released a graph which says otherwise.

here is the link to the claim..
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html

Look at Flanker Radar Power aparature product.
Where you can see the PA peak is 36.2 dBWm2 and is just below Irbis E which is 40.8 with Average peak power to be 6.5.

N-011M BARS
Antennae Diameter- 1000mm
Peak power- 4-5kw -
Mean power- 1.2kw
Antennae type- PESA
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Detection- 140 km for a 3m2 RCS

However this claim is not likely the same with APA...
But I know there are issues with Bars itself.

But Iam quite doubtful about the Peak power of MSA Zhuk will be 8kw. Still searching though.

Not sure still if Zhuk MSA will be better that Bars 011.

 

[Ping]

That guy is probably on crack. That's even more range than Raptors' APG-77!! lol If you go through the previous pages, you'll find a graph by that same website. There he has claimed a different range.

We have an official brochure, which clearly mentions the range along with rcs for the latest radar. There can't be anything more clearer than this.

 

[SpArK]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/64364-f-35jsf-vs-su-35s-comparison.html

 

[Ping]

I'll check that out tomo, benny. It's 1:30am here.

 

[Dash]

That guy is probably on crack. That's even more range than Raptors' APG-77!! lol If you go through the previous pages, you'll find a graph by that same website. There he has claimed a different range.

We have an official brochure, which clearly mentions the range along with rcs for the latest radar. There can't be anything more clearer than this.

Well I actually doubted its claims, and then I saw the graph on Peak power aparature V/s RCS claims made against distance.

Thank you for the source, I will keep looking.

 

[SpArK]

I'll check that out tomo, benny. It's 1:30am here.

Ok kewl.. see you guys making a good discussion based on that soon.