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Naval- LCA Completes first Supersonic Flight

We were discussing j-20 and not j-15


One country which builds almost 2 contemporaneity planes. One lacks the capability of a very old 3rd generation plane and other is state of art (J 20 Acording to you). It is not possible. j 20 is a junk . its weaknesses have now been started coming out. Noe other than chinese scientist have exposed that.
 
You are right.. In case of attrition MiG29K will take much time to acquire. While NLCA can be made quick..

And moreover Navy wants Expertise, If NLCA can be made, making N-AMCA or N-FGFA (Not T-50) will not be much difficult...





Hari, can u please paraphrase ur question, I came late so I don't know the points raised in discussion.


It was regarding LCA emergance as a premier fighter of Asia. Heman said that J 20 is very advanced. All discussion started from there.
 
@ he-man,
See, the very basis of trying Naval variant of Tejas for carrier ops is for the sake of diversifying the platforms and also with more indegenisation..It is not a war doctrine it is just a phase in developing a role for the indigenously available light weight fighter..
All fighters have got their own Pro's and Con's..Light weight fighters do have some pros over heavy fighters such as J-11B etc..
Tejas being a very agile, Nimble and pilot friendly platform is now tested for its possible role in naval theatre since India has a vast area of sea unguarded, Tejas could be a very valuable platform to run cap and recon roles in those areas..
That is the major reason for basing Tejas in Sulur..The station which is in almost equal distance from all the three sea boards..150 kms from bay of Bengal, 120 km from Arabian sea and 250 Km from Indian ocean..
Trust me the naval planners are not fools..we have a strategy in hand and we are steadily moving towards the same..
 
A carrier fighter should be good enough to at least hold on to enemy assault during blockade or other scenarios.

tejas can barely compete with jf-17(no offence to jf-17),it has no chance against a chinese flanker or pakistani f-16 block 40(after mlu).

So whats the point?

Even mig-29 k is average but at least it has a good t/w and max takeoff weight,not to mention a non-podded irst.
Tejas is simply not a good option as a carrier fighter.


It has a future as a good point defence fighter:)
LCA can be a close carrier defence fighter armed with BVR missiles as point defence while MIG 29 naval version having longer range with more usefull paylod can act as a offencive platform. This way they can complete each other.
 
Finally, the communal government is revving up India's defence sector to protect national interests. :lol:

Secularists won't be happy.
 
That is the major reason for basing Tejas in Sulur..The station which is in almost equal distance from all the three sea boards..150 kms from bay of Bengal, 120 km from Arabian sea and 250 Km from Indian ocean..
Trust me the naval planners are not fools..we have a strategy in hand and we are steadily moving towards the same..

You are confusing LCA in IAF, which will be operated at Sulur and N-LCA of IN. The earlier will be a useful fighter operated from air bases, where it can take off and land with full payload and in the version that hopefully will offer the required flight performance, but all this is not the case for N-LCA in Indian Navy. N-LCA will be heavier, will have operational limitations by taking off and landing on a carrier, without propper AWACS or tanker support and in an numerically very limited airwing compared to the numbers of fighters a single IAF airbase would operate. With all these operational limitiations that IN has to face on a carrier, you logically need highly capable fighter to actually do a propper job and be useful.
 
Dear sancho,
First of all NLCA and LCA doesn't have much difference in them..They both are the same platforms with pretty much same operating charecteristics and basing LCA in sulur is a major strategic decision taken considering the Naval theatre and the immediate threats in the naval neighbourhood..because we desperately require a lost alternative for our recons and surveillance ops along our vast coastal area and also few hundred Kms inside the seas..
2nd point is that NLCA is a prototype and so far it is pretty much there as shore based fighter only..
The point is to get the Naval officers trained in the indigenous platform and to see how well it fares by putting it in SBTF..
The Navy especially for career operations are not going to go for a single engine platform anyday, until and unless they know how reliable the platform could be..
Yes, as per your point, Navy needs a highly capable fighter for doing all those ops as you've mentioned, but hey not everyday we are gonna face flankers or F16s against us..
And till that time, just a handful of carrier based fulcrums and 2-3 sqns of LCA be it airforce version or Naval version is enough to do the job of recon and surveillance of all our coastlines in the southern peninsular..
You do know that operating cost of fulcrums could be three to four times that of LCA..
Technically speaking I can operate my four Tejas for the cost of operating one fulcrum, hence navy had decided to place the NLCA for valuable training and also recon and surveillance..But the future of carrier based NLCA is unknown as long as it proves to be a reliable one with that GE 414 engine, since it is a single engine fighter..
But once it is proved reliable, no matter whatever be the shortfalls, navy is gonna go for it and patch up the shortfalls in the due course of time considering the agility and ease of operating..also pls don forget that we are not building any super carriers and hence, NLCA could be a very good choice for them if they prove the fighter to be a reliable one in terms of maintenance and engine life..This is what is the not so official news I can get for you form the sources..Period..
 
Dear sancho,
First of all NLCA and LCA doesn't have much difference in them..They both are the same platforms with pretty much same operating charecteristics

I'm sorry but you are highly mistaken and should inform yourself a bit more about the differences of both versions. The normal navalising of a land based fighter with some changes at the gears and fuselage alone will add around 500Kg, in N-LCAs case that figure is likely to go up because of the added LEVCONS and we already know that the fuselage of the naval version is very different and bulkier than the Air Force version, because of the modifications of the gears. We will have to wait till we see the final MK2 design to see what additional changes the naval version might get, but it's very clear that the performance of both fighters will be different and that, not even including the operational differences I already mentioned by operating from land bases or STOBAR carriers. So N-LCA in IN will be very different to LCA can be in IAF, be it in roles, performance or importance!

Wrt to Sulur, again it is IAF that will operate land based LCAs there, not IN with N-LCA, that's why the prime role for those MK1s will remain limited and mainly aimed to air policing and if needed CAS roles. The prime anti ship or maritime patrol plattform of IAF however will be the MKIs at Thanjavur, which simply offer far more advantages for that role (far longer range and endurance, better radar for long range detection and soon even Brahmos for anti ship roles). The LCA MK1s will support them, but surely have no importance in the maritime role of the IAF as such.

but hey not everyday we are gonna face flankers or F16s against us..

What else? That are the prime platforms that an IN carrier would have to face and when you plan with N-LCA to provide air defence for the CBG, they are the benchmark IN must look at.

You do know that operating cost of fulcrums could be three to four times that of LCA..

Of course, just like I know that you need at least 2 x N-LCAs to carry the same load of a single Mig, so what's the point? You can only operate a limited number of fighters on a carrier, wasting space then for fighters that are operationally and capabilitywise highly limited hardly makes sense, but if the aim is the simple pride to have an indigenous carrier fighter and to claim to be in the small group of nations that have developed a carrier fighter, costs and capability doesn't matter much anyway, even if the fighter is the worst modern carrier fighter in the world.
The brits have developed the Sea Harrier and surely are proud of it too, but how did it compared to F14, F18s or the Su 33? And in the same manner, we might be proud of N-LCA, but how does it compare against J15s? So pride and operational cost doesn't matter, when you don't get the necessary capability as well, to defend the carrier, if not also do offensive roles.
 
Of course, just like I know that you need at least 2 x N-LCAs to carry the same load of a single Mig, so what's the point? You can only operate a limited number of fighters on a carrier, wasting space then for fighters that are operationally and capabilitywise highly limited hardly makes sense, but if the aim is the simple pride to have an indigenous carrier fighter and to claim to be in the small group of nations that have developed a carrier fighter, costs and capability doesn't matter much anyway, even if the fighter is the worst modern carrier fighter in the world.
My point is that, the fulcrums anyways doesn't have to do that everyday..But surveillance of coastline is required on daily basis..Hence, Flying fulcrums everyday or Flying Tejas everyday for that role, which one could be better??
I'm not against fulcrums, I'm just against using more fulcrums for the roles which can be easily done by tejas in a better and cost effective way..
Wasting space??C'mon yaar, tejas is easily half the size of fulcrum and your are telling me that, it will be a waste of space to have tejas on board..???
capability wise limited???What aspect of Fulcrum do you think the Tejas will be lacking??
1.AtoA role? pretty much capapble of carrying out the same mission, expect range limitations and size limitations, but that is also an advantage for them.
2.AtoG role? Fulcrums can attack land targets??If so, Specify the armaments with links?
3.Surveilance role??- tejas can do equally good
4. Defensive role??- Can stand toe to toe against any known adversaries with its current configuration..

What else? That are the prime platforms that an IN carrier would have to face and when you plan with N-LCA to provide air defence for the CBG, they are the benchmark IN must look at.
I disagree, it need not be matching the flankers or Falcons toe to toe..
any flanker or falcon on an offensive role targeting our CBG will be Mostly on anti-shipping mode and will at the most carry three to four AAMs, four for flankers..And may be two anti ship Missiles, one ECM/Jamming pod and two External fuel tanks, because they cannot land their ship anywhere close to 400 kms near our coast or CBG and hence they need range extension.. here I'm possibily excluding the AWACS and other supporting platforms..
The current NLCA weapons config for defensive role is very much capable of taking them on head to head with two SRAAMs and 2 BVRAAMS and an external fuel tank for extended range and may be two more IR versions of the SRAAMS..Are you telling me that, NLCA with this configuration wont be able to take on these flankers and falcons..?
Hence going by your logic, NLCA is very much capable of defending the assets on defensive role..Also it can carry an Antiship missiles if two SRAAMS are to be sacrificed..still it will be able to stand against any CBG on a strike formation..
Not to forget the avionics part of LCA and also the RCS which could be equal to those pitted against them if not better..Hence it is not necessary that the NLCA should be benchmarked to flankers and falcons..

I'm sorry but you are highly mistaken and should inform yourself a bit more about the differences of both versions. The normal navalising of a land based fighter with some changes at the gears and fuselage alone will add around 500Kg, in N-LCAs case that figure is likely to go up because of the added LEVCONS and we already know that the fuselage of the naval version is very different and bulkier than the Air Force version, because of the modifications of the gears. We will have to wait till we see the final MK2 design to see what additional changes the naval version might get, but it's very clear that the performance of both fighters will be different and that, not even including the operational differences I already mentioned by operating from land bases or STOBAR carriers. So N-LCA in IN will be very different to LCA can be in IAF, be it in roles, performance or importance!
Dear Sancho,
These are very small details when compared to the operational charecteristics of the fighter and the OP concurrence..
Fuselage strengthening and arrestor hook addition will definitely add some weight but the OP characteristics will be the same..
Out of all the parameters that are needed to be tested, for the NLCA more than 85% parameters are in concurrence to that of the Airforce variant and hence the testing is already done and documented and flight characteristics are arrived and SOPs are being framed as we speak now..Hence NLCA will not take much time to be delivered or even to get its FOC compared to LCA provided the T/W is optimised for career based ops with all the additions..
The Naval Version is going to get a Buddy refuelling or AtoA refuelling probe which the MK2 version is also going to get, the arrestor hook, strengthened undercarriage to with stand shock..
Coming to your point of Anti- shipping role, MKIs are stationed at Thanjavur as a part of the look east policy taken by MOD and it has strategic depth and meaning in it..Of course MKIs are there to be the main deterrent to any maritime attack that come towards eastern or western seaboard..But again I'm telling you that is not going to happen everyday..Tell me how many times after indian Indepenence, India seaboard got attacked by any naval forces or atleast any naval blockades imposed on Indian ships..??So far none..
The MKIs are there to avert and tackle any such situation, but they'll just sit there and wait for any action..They wont do the recon and surveillance everyday..Those roles for both the sea boards will be carried out by LCA sulur..
As per Indian Security planners, there is no such thing as Navy's role and airforce role as far as south India is concerned.
 
My point is that, the fulcrums anyways doesn't have to do that everyday..But surveillance of coastline is required on daily basis..Hence, Flying fulcrums everyday or Flying Tejas everyday for that role, which one could be better??

You again are confusing IAF and IN! Fulcrums = Mig 29 and if you mean the naval version on the carriers, they won't do surveillance roles at the coastlines, since that is the role of IAFs land based fighters. So on the carrier, N-LCA and the Mig 29K will mainly do air policing / defence missions for the CBG, while offensive roles like strike missions or even surveillance of enemy targets in war times are not every day roles and definitely not a point of costs.
For the surveillance of the coastlines, IAF will use LCA MK1 or MKIs (Flankers) in the south and the best choice for that role remains to be the MKI, because it offers far more range and endurance, to do far longer patrol missions than the LCA could.

Wasting space??C'mon yaar, tejas is easily half the size of fulcrum and your are telling me that, it will be a waste of space to have tejas on board..???

Again, when you have only space for 20 fighters on a carrier and you need at least 2 x N-LCAs to do the same job as a single Mig 29K, you waste space that could be used by more capable fighters and gives you more fighters to do more missions at the same time.

capability wise limited???What aspect of Fulcrum do you think the Tejas will be lacking??

- lack of hardpoints
- lack of payload
- lack of weapons (from what we know so far)
- lack of wet stations (in buddy refuelling role, the Mig can carry 4 x fuel tanks, N-LCA only 2)
- lack of flight performance (speed, maneuverability...)
(- lack of IRST, at least we still don't know if that will be part of the MK2)

All this shows that it falls clearly short as a carrier fighter compared to the Mig and why having more Migs on the carriers would be far better for IN in war times.

They wont do the recon and surveillance everyday..Those roles for both the sea boards will be carried out by LCA sulur..

Wrong, it is already doing it at our land based borders as well as in the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea today. IAF even proposed to use it in maritime patrol flights to support the anti piracy missions IN participated, exactly because of the advantages in range, endurance and detection capability that it offers:

IAF may use fighters against pirates

...IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshal P.K. Barbora said the air force could be called upon to support anti-piracy operations off the Somalian coast to deal with the expanding footprint of the pirates...

...He said, “We may not necessarily employ firepower... we can send fighters to carry out patrols (over pirate-infested waters). The Sukhoi-30 has great endurance.”

IAF may use fighters against pirates - Hindustan Times


Kalaikunda fighters in charge of Andaman and Nicobar Islands defences

...Over the last few years, Delhi has started to realize that China is as great a threat as Pakistan and there has been a rush to upgrade facilities in the eastern and northeastern sector. Fighters from Kalaikunda can fly to the Andamans and beyond for longrange patrols. Unlike older aircraft, the Su-30 MKIs can fly at very slow speeds (nearly that of a helicopter) and carry out surveillance before zooming away at twice the speed of sound.

Kalaikunda fighters in charge of Andaman and Nicobar Islands defences - The Times of India
 
@sancho How many Mig29Ks will be based on Ins Vikramaditya? I mean not its capacity which is 30 I guess at max but numbers it will actually carry(21?) during war or stand of. Also based on that how many will be reserve for CAP missions and how many for strike missions? Will it be sufficient for normal strike missions?
 
@sancho How many Mig29Ks will be based on Ins Vikramaditya? I mean not its capacity which is 30 I guess at max but numbers it will actually carry(21?) during war or stand of. Also based on that how many will be reserve for CAP missions and how many for strike missions? Will it be sufficient for normal strike missions?

Thirty is the figure for all aircrafts that will be operated on the carrier, not only for fighters. So depending on how many Ka 31, Sea King or naval Dhruvs IN want to use on the carrier, the number of fighters will go down. From the last set of pics we could get some hints:

INS Vikramaditya commissioned | Page 27
 

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