NATO tankers set to fire in Pakistan after attack

[Musafar]

Good work.

Let them sweat abit.

 

[Developereo]

I dont know how many of you read Issac Asimov, but quoting one of my fav lines from his books

"Violence is the last resort of the Incompetent"

Actually, its "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" but Salvor Hardin (and presumably Asimov himself) sets the record straight on this misquote later on in the series.

Stop sympathizing with their cause.

I think you missed the point. People here are not sympathizing with the militants' cause. They are expressing relief that finally someone has the guts to send NATO a message.

This underscores the whole debate about why extremism and terrorism are so hard to defeat. It is precisely the spineless appeasement and utter impotence of Muslim governments worldwide that gives the extremists an opportunity to hijack legitimate causes and portray themselves as champions of these causes.

You have no idea of the consequences if NATO decides to find alternative routes.

NATO has no alternatives. Do you honestly think Pakistan was their first choice for an ally in this war?

Iran is unlikely to comply and the only other alternative is overland through the CARS: a very expensive and tedious alternative.

either way, Mr. Zardari is at a crossroads with fatal consequences for him

Been there, done that.
Wasn't Benazir famously quoted as saying she would welcome US troops in Pakistan?

Zardari has no consequences to fear. He will sell out the country, collect his commission, and will be on the next plane out to London. His money is safe in Swiss banks and his family is already abroad.

And the biggest irony is that the Pakistani public will elect Nawaz Sharif, the crook-in-waiting, as some sort of savior from the evils of Zardari.

Interesting observation. Inspite of numerous other drone attacks where militants are killed, such a response is rare. But immediately when NATO breached IB in hot pursuit, causing collateral damage, supposedly, to PA, NATO trucks are burned that too in an area where such incidents seldom happen.

IIRC, last time such an incident occurred (intrusion), it was followed by a major attack on NATO trucks. No?

Complicity?

Nope, different provocation.
Most Pakistanis don't mind militants being killed by drone attacks, but killing Pakistani soldiers is another matter altogether.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

^^ Look at the world map again.

"Most Pakistanis don't mind militants being killed by drone attacks, but killing Pakistani soldiers is another matter altogether."
Yes, drones never killed innocent people. The rage from military comes when the bullet is shot at the soldiers (decrease the pressure) but what about the COLLATERAL DAMAGE?
INNOCENT LIVES?

How many times have you blocked NATO line after ABC civilian died in the drone attack?

The question is not about a drone or a heli--The question is about a soldier and a civilian!
And the difference in the eyes of Kiyani and his co.
And the chamchas of corrupt military.

 

[Developereo]

^^ Look at the world map again.

The only way to Afghanistan is via Pakistan, Iran or the CARs.
What world map are you looking at?

How many times have you blocked NATO line after ABC civilian died in the drone attack?

The question is not about a drone or a heli--The question is about a soldier and a civilian!
And the difference in the eyes of Kiyani and his co.

The difference is intent.

As angry as it makes us, most Pakistanis are mature enough to distinguish between the case where a weapon is fired at a bad guy and good guys get killed alongwith, and the situation where a weapon is aimed at and fired with the express intention of killing our good guys.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

The only way to Afghanistan is via Pakistan, Iran or the CARs.
What world map are you looking at?



The difference is intent.

As angry as it makes us, most Pakistanis are mature enough to distinguish between the case where a weapon is fired at a bad guy and good guys get killed alongwith, and the situation where a weapon is aimed at and fired with the express intention of killing our good guys.

End result--Kills 'good' guys.
Ohh, Drone is the best weapon we can have--How many innocent lives have been claimed by it?

Ohh, no one is innocent in the hills as they support 'bad' guys--Wipe out the population.
^^For real???

 

[muse]

As angry as it makes us, most Pakistanis are mature enough to distinguish between the case where a weapon is fired at a bad guy and good guys get killed along with, and the situation where a weapon is aimed at and fired with the express intention of killing our good guys.

Fair enough, but lets see if Mr. Zardari's government can tell the same difference -- I'll make you a bet, a small bet, that it cannot. And further I will make you another bet, that this Pakistani government will use these deaths to dishonor the armed forces and those soldiers killed by agreeing to whatever the Americans want from the Pakistani government.

Sad? well, yes, but the problem here is not the NATO, it's the political problem inside Pakistan - The American destabilized the Musharraf regime only because the PPP and other political parties promised to deliver Pakistan to the Americans - The Pakistani armed forces then must play both sides, they have no other option because their own politicians are more than happy to barter away Pakistan, for Palaces in Europe, for numbered accounts you know this better than I do.

If one wants to see an end to this, it means unity inside Pakistani politics, not on everything, but some core issues, some core idea of what Pakistan's interest are and what must be done to protect them - and yet you and I and all of us know, that so long as we have the kinds of politics and the kind of political framework in which Pakistani politics make sense, simply is not possible.

Lets be calm and ride out this horrid klepto-politics of Pakistani political parties -

Will that mean that we will be able to resist NATO? Yes, it does, it means we will be able to do anything we think we need to do.

Will NATO do it again? without a doubt, as sure as the sun will rise in the East - what then must we do? NATO understands only casualties, it's sad, but it's true. Will Zardari do what has to be done? well, well, what I can say? Maybe he will pass it on to Kiyani and will Kiyani be able to do anything without political cover? Well, you know....

 

[SekrutYakhni]

"The American destabilized the Musharraf regime only because the PPP and other political parties promised to deliver Pakistan to the Americans"

So, do you think that NRO and judicial crisis during Musharaf era were actually the products of Americans and not of Musharaf?

 

[muse]

The Americans pressured Musharraf to institute NRO, this was the venue to clear the way for BB and her PPP - Musharraf wanted neither BB nor Nawaz to ever again get the chance to do what they did to Pakistan.

Musharraf saw clearly that the US could not ever have the kind of relationship with Pakistan that it says it wants.

The NRO became a crisis because the CJP seems to have a "soft spot" if you will, for Nawaz - all cases dropped, the CJP is concerned about taxes politicians pay, but not Nawaz's taxes.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

The Americans pressured Musharraf to institute NRO, this was the venue to clear the way for BB and her PPP - Musharraf wanted neither BB nor Nawaz to ever again get the chance to do what they did to Pakistan.

Musharraf saw clearly that the US could not ever have the kind of relationship with Pakistan that it says it wants.

The NRO became a crisis because the CJP seems to have a "soft spot" if you will, for Nawaz - all cases dropped, the CJP is concerned about taxes politicians pay, but not Nawaz's taxes.

So, the introduction of vibrant media was the vision of Musharaf and when the gov blocked the transmission, a plan of the U.S. to destabilize his regime?

The corruption scandals at that time were the product of the U.S. and not of Musharaf led gov?

Emergency declared in 08 (I guess) was also declared by the U.S. and not Musharaf, right?

 

[SekrutYakhni]

'Three ex-Army generals found guilty of Rs 25 bn scam'

This scam was also planted by the U.S. and not the cronies of Musharaf, right?

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Why did Musharaf need the same political jokers of 'status quo' lot when he was against that status quo?

Ch brothers and lota cronies.

AND WHERE was his COMMANDO personality when the U.S. pressurized him?

 

[muse]

I'm not privy to that, I don't know - but it was a mistake, a huge mistake. On the other hand, PPP and the "liberals" could not get past his uniform - they saw not a program to save Pakistan, all they saw was his uniform, this is why I say that for some in Pakistan, "democracy" is a religion, and not a tool.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

I'm not privy to that, I don't know - but it was a mistake, a huge mistake. On the other hand, PPP and the "liberals" could not get past his uniform - they saw not a program to save Pakistan, all they saw was his uniform, this is why I say that for some in Pakistan, "democracy" is a religion, and not a tool.

Okay, we should move on now for a bit then I 'd like to come back on the same issue!

If not democracy than what?
Communism, imperialism, fascism, socialism, new-ism?

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Originally posted by muse.

"The Americans pressured Musharraf to institute NRO"

We used to flatter when we saw those punches from the commando. His passion and vision--some call it white lies--

So, as you mentioned earlier, if all it took was the U.S. pressure to make him a goat, what was the difference between him and politicians?

"AND WHERE was his COMMANDO personality when the U.S. pressurized him?"
Perhaps, those punches were for locals.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

And if the U.S. back stabbed Musharaf---Still, Musharaf chose to live in the U.S.--

Now, I am really confused about his charismatic personality.