Naswarville

[Armstrong]

no my dear he is not asking such questions........he is just confuse....and its not only about the beliefs of one person or a bunch of people .....my dear a little example: for sukook there must be real asset to back it up.....while in bonds there is no such condition.....in Ijarah the object should be in custody of bank...no such condition for conventional financing.......

Interest is anything over and above of principal amount lended.....but in Islam there is no loan product available for business purpose ........so technically speaking in Islam loan fall under the category of non-remunerative contract........

So my dear its not just about beliefs and faith........

Sir jee Sukook mein bhi tou type of asset financed change hotaa hai naa that can happen in conventional debt financing as well if one wishes it as such warnaaa usss pei bhi tou the payment that you have to make to the Bank is calculated using the KIBOR & that means an element of interest would be there because KIBOR is real-interest rate or inflation adjusted interest rate !

Waiseee kehteiii hain kei hum Kashmiri loooog yahooodii nasal keiii hoteiii hain so mein neiii kahaa keiii apneiii Jewish bhaiyon waleiii karobaar mein hisaaa leitaaa hunnn !

 

[HRK]

you will have to explain it in details one day... if you lend me money and I will have to return only the principal, how wiill you survive.(if that is your business)
Not on this thread though.

Dear the case which you have stated is of personal loan which again fall under non-remunerative contract.......and the term which is used for that loan is Qarz-e-hasna

But for business purpose you could be financed by other way (non-interest based)....

I leave this topic at this point......if you or somebody else is interested may create a questionnaire thread I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge.....

 

[Dubious]

Oh please you ending up single even then? Not a chance, i thought we agreed you had killer eyes hahaha
actually life alone is the best. I like the idea of that and personally admire that fact that you didn't get married. If you ask me, that's the way to go, but that's just my opinion lol
Lmaooooooooooooo but that's good though, shows you care my younger sister is 10 and she reminds me of you actually, she's so responsible and does boss me around, but i let her cuz i don't like taking responsibility myself

Damn my eldest also is irresponsible

 

[HRK]

Sir jeee I've studied Islamic Finance as part of my Financial Management curriculum in ACCA & what I read didn't seem all that different from what happens in conventional financing....even the Molvi Sahib teaching us the course noted as such. Ijarah is not principally different from a Financial Lease & Ijarah-al-something (forgot the rest of the Arabic) is principally is the same as an Operating Lease.

Yara q naswaristan ki hawa kharab kar rah hai......open a separate thread for this.....Ijarah is a rent agreement in simplest term......which can be used as alternative for conventional lease.....or more appropriately it is not a mod of financing in its origin it is a normal business activity......it only transfer the the right for usage of asset.

now the basic difference of Ijarah than conventional baking is that the lessor assume the full risk of the asset if the assets get destroyed without the misuse or negligence of lessee the lessor can not claim the rent but in conventional leas bank can claim the instalment/interest.

As I related to you earlier, Hammad Bhai, I audited an Engineering Company where I accounted for more than 200 Leased Assets of that Company with many of them being leased from Islamic Banks, baring minor changes there was no difference between the terms, the rentals, the principals & the penalty clauses between those Leased Assets from Islamic Banks & those from Conventional Banks.

Yar i Know it will be difficult but could you provide some documentation or something so that I can study and comment because without that it will difficult for me to comment about bank and its policy.......if that bank has deviated from standard policies it is risking its licence......

In both the cases the Rental amounts were calculated using the Karachi Inter-Bank Offer Rate (KIBOR) because it was explicitly mentioned in those Leases that its 6 months KIBOR + 2% or 4 months KIBOR + 4% etc. And what is the KIBOR if not the inflation adjusted interest rate or real interest rate given to the commercial banks so that they can charge interests or profits to their customers.

Tu sir jee kiyaa baaat kar raheiii hain aaap ?

yar KIBOR is a benchmark to determine profit margin it is obvious that banks have to use some standard......yar suppose you have a house which u rented out to someone what would you charge and more importantly at what rate you would charge.....???

BTW a suggestion about Islamic inter bank offer rate is in pending at approval stage from last 2-3 years in SBP.....

 

[Armstrong]

Yara q naswaristan ki hawa kharab kar rah hai......open a separate thread for this.....Ijarah is a rent agreement is simplest term......which can be used as alternative for conventional lease.....or more appropriately it is not a mod of financing in its origin it is a normal business activity......it only transfer the the right for usage of asset.

And that is exactly what happens in a Finance Lease !

now the basic difference of Ijarah than conventional baking is that the lessor assume the full risk of the asset if the assets get destroyed without the misuse or negligence of lessee the lessor can not claim the rent but in conventional leas bank can claim the instalment/interest.

Indeed that difference is there but there are Financial Institutions out there (the West) that offer pretty much similar things on the basis of it being fairer.

Yar i Know it will be difficult but could you provide some documentation or something so that I can study and comment because without that it will difficult for me to comment about bank and its policy.......if that bank has deviated from standard policies it is risking its licence......

You know I can't; auditor-client confidentiality ! But I can tell you this - They were 4-5 leading Islamic Banks from the Market.

yar KIBOR is a benchmark to determine profit margin it is obvious that banks have to use some standard......yar suppose you have a house which u rented out to someone what would you charge and more importantly at what rate you would charge.....???

Yes but the inclusion of KIBOR brings in the element of interest because after all KIBOR is the inflation adjusted interest rate so if the bank decides that its profits are going to be (say!) 2% + KIBOR , tou they are including in their Profit figures Interest are they not ? At any rate isn't that 2% interest as well because essentially you're making money off money ?

BTW a suggestion about Islamic inter bank offer rate is in pending at approval stage from last 2-3 years in SBP.....

Janaaab purrr baaat tou wahan par hiii aa jaiii giii naaa ? Even if they decide that there Profit would be as follows :

Profit = Inflation + 2% , tuuu phir bhiii that 2% is interest is it not ?

 

[HRK]

And that is exactly what happens in a Finance Lease !
Indeed that difference is there but there are Financial Institutions out there (the West) that offer pretty much similar things on the basis of it being fairer.

yup i know they are offering something similar......so acha hai na yaar ye tu is me masla kya hai....

You know I can't; auditor-client confidentiality ! But I can tell you this - They were 4-5 leading Islamic Banks from the Market.

Ya i can understand..........

Yes but the inclusion of KIBOR brings in the element of interest because after all KIBOR is the inflation adjusted interest rate so if the bank decides that its profits are going to be (say!) 2% + KIBOR , tou they are including in their Profit figures Interest are they not ? At any rate isn't that 2% interest as well because essentially you're making money off money ?

Janaaab purrr baaat tou wahan par hiii aa jaiii giii naaa ? Even if they decide that there Profit would be as follows :

Profit = Inflation + 2% , tuuu phir bhiii that 2% is interest is it not ?

nahi ho ga yar deko you do not provide cash or funds but handover asset tu mare bhai.....paise per paise ka concept kha se a gaya......ab aik cheez ma ne 100 ki buy ker ke 110 ki sale karu ya 1000 ki i am earning by sale not by charging above the funds.....

"That is because they have said : Trading is but like riba. and Allah has permitted trading and prohibited riba. (Surah Al-Baqraha...)

 

[Armstrong]

nahi ho ga yar deko you do not provide cash or funds but handover asset tu mare bhai.....paise per paise ka concept kha se a gaya......ab aik cheez ma ne 100 ki buy ker ke 110 ki sale karu ya 1000 ki i am earning by sale not by charging above the funds.....

"That is because they have said : Trading is but like riba. and Allah has permitted trading and prohibited riba. (Surah Al-Baqraha...)

Sir jeee Principal ki baaat nahin kar rahaa Profit ya Rental ki baaat kar rahaa huuun !

 

[HRK]

Sir jeee Principal ki baaat nahin kar rahaa Profit ya Rental ki baaat kar rahaa huuun !

bhai ma bi tu profit ki baat kar raah hoo.......as in above example 10 Rs. profit was earned by sales not by lending.....using of KIBOR is a managerial decision just to determine rate yar and nothing.....if I charge extra then KIBOR people will not buy from me if I charge less don't you think it would not be a good business decision.....it is what i say "price to be a muslim"......

 

[livingdead]

you guys want me to open an islamic finance thread? @HRK @Armstrong?

 

[HRK]

you guys want me to open an islamic finance thread? @HRK @Armstrong?

Upto u ...only if you want...what i suggested is "anyone interested should open a questionnaire thread.... "

 

[livingdead]

Upto u ...only if you want...what i suggested is "anyone interested should open a questionnaire thread.... "

oops. I forgot, I just agreed with @Slav Defence, we should not do it in normal threads, it should be in senior cafe... none of have access to it

 

[Armstrong]

bhai ma bi tu profit ki baat kar raah hoo.......as in above example 10 Rs. profit was earned by sales not by lending.....using of KIBOR is a managerial decision just to determine rate yar and nothing.....if I charge extra then KIBOR people will not buy from me if I charge less don't you think it would not be a good business decision.....it is what i say "price to be a muslim"......

Hammad Bhai, consider an example :

You lease $1 million worth of equipment to me & charge me a rental amount every single month ! Whats the difference between that in Islamic Banking & Conventional banking ?

 

[HRK]

Hammad Bhai, consider an example :

You lease $1 million worth of equipment to me & charge me a rental amount every single month ! Whats the difference between that in Islamic Banking & Conventional banking ?

mode of financing.....

yar a detail discussion is required in this account I am feeling sleepy right now.....if you allow I would reply you tomorrow......otherwise I can manage another 15-20 minutes

 

[Secur]

you guys want me to open an islamic finance thread? @HRK @Armstrong?

No , you have done enough ' technical trolling ' for today

 

[livingdead]

No , you have done enough ' technical trolling ' for today

you following me?.. too bad..
@Armstrong ... so you started working already?