Must watch : Ambassador Rustam Shah spelling the beans on Pakistan's games in Afghanistan

[Rasengan]

Fair enough, since you have raised your demands here is a couple of the Afghan side.

- handover Afghan Talis,including Haqqani and stop all their support infrastructure and stop graduating anti afghan elements in your madrassas. Haqqani madrassas are acting like yale and stanford in Pakistan
- stop screwing around with the transit routes, this is an agreed right of the landlocked country
- Afghanistan will have relations with India like any other country does, you cant dictate that. but Gurrantee will be given that Afghan soil wont be used against Pakistan.
- Afghan refugees are already returning.

Sounds good to you ?
-

Why are you still crying about the transit route? Pakistan gave its response to you, so stop whining and use the Iranian port. We have the power and authority to decide if Afghanistan is allowed to trade through our territory with India, and the Pakistan Government has an alternative route for Central Asia, thus you have no bargaining chip Pakistan shall continue to support the Haqqani Network and there's nothing you can do to stop that except watch Kabul burn We don't accept false promises from Northern Alliance Warlords.

 

[A-Team]

@A-Team

Not to give Pakistan a pass at all -- but to me what is good for the goose is good for the gander. To evaluate Pakistan's bad behavior -- we can look at what other states did or would have done, had the shoe been on the other foot -- a small sampling

1. Afghanistan -- support for Baluch separatists, support for Pashtoonistan -- which was essentially supporting the equivalent of Taliban --
2. India [World's largest democracy] -- forcefully annexed HayderAbad, Goa, Sikkim and used totally different principles vis-a-vis Kashmir. Supported Mukti Bhani (terrorists) to split Pakistan into two. Controls the foreign policy of Bhutan. Intervention in Sri Lanka; support for the LTTE (terrorists)
3. USA [World most powerful liberal democracy and leader of the free world] -- Treatment of Cuba after missile crisis, Haiti/Panama episode in 1990s, Annexation of: Texas, civil war, annexation of New Mexico, California, [current day Arizona]; Monroe doctrine: that the US would be the pre-eminent power in the Latin America
4. Israel [Liberal democracy] -- annexation of territories outside the 1948 lines -- denial to a new Palestinian state of having a full defense force -- insistence that Israel will keep bases in a new Palestinian state.



Actually "transit routes are not as simple as stated by Afghanistan" -- see Israel vs Gaza
1. Pakistan can easily deny Afghanistan access to the sea:
a. Claiming Afghanistan is a belligerent -- this is akin to a Naval blockade (declaration of war)
b. Afghanistan is a security threat -- which it is (weapons are smuggled from Afghanistan into Pakistan)
c. Afghanistan is a narcotic threat -- drugs are smuggles into Afghanistan from Pakistan
d. The national treatment to Afghanistan was granted in APPTA because of US pressure -- National treatment of Afghan transports is not required under the law of the sea
e. Pakistan can impart addition friction (regulatory, malfeasance by short staffing functions) on Afghan transports
f. The access to the Sea and not India
2. Turkmenistan, Kyrgistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan are also landlocked states and Afghanistan has to grant them the rights to access Pakistan or Pakistani ports (while Pakistan only has to grant Afghanistan access to the sea)

Fair enough and that was the reason of me not being surprised at Pakistani state behaviour. [ in statecraft no emotions ]
so Pakistanis should stop complaining, and keeping their emotional hearts into good care when Afghanistan makes relationships and whatever it takes to pursue her interests.

Garbage like Harmkhore this and that makes me laugh

 

[The Accountant]

Our friends in Pakistan should listen to this with open heart and ears. This is not an Afghan speaking but one of your ambassador talking.

The truth is ( no hard feelings as an Afghan ) that there are no morality in state relations, so before one of you starts lecturing Afghans on being haram khor and garbage like that, I ask you to listen to one of your own.

___________________________-

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1770364016530222

Are you supporting his instance ????

His instance is to support taliban ... Dont be part of afghan warand get yourself separate from this ... So you are with him on this ?

If not then you are the biggest hypocriate on the face of earth ... You are supporting part of a theory which suits you but remaining part you will suggest as it does not support you ...

 

[Rasengan]

Fair enough and that was the reason of me not being surprised at Pakistani state behaviour. [ in statecraft no emotions ]
so Pakistanis should stop complaining, and keeping their emotional hearts into good care when Afghanistan makes relationships and whatever it takes to pursue her interests.

Garbage like Harmkhore this and that makes me laugh

What makes me laugh is your pathetic attempt in trying to make Afghanistan look like a saint, while Pakistan is the boogeyman. By all means continue your relationship with India, however, don't cry like a baby when Pakistan has counter measures in place.

 

[pakistani342]

Fair enough and that was the reason of me not being surprised at Pakistani state behaviour. [ in statecraft no emotions ]
so Pakistanis should stop complaining, and keeping their emotional hearts into good care when Afghanistan makes relationships and whatever it takes to pursue her interests.

Garbage like Harmkhore this and that makes me laugh

Actually no -- again this is the mistake you make.

For example: the US state and people are pissed at Pakistan because they perceive a Pakistani betrayal -- and this has enormous impacts on US/Pakistan relationship. The Pakistani people are often referred to as "ungrateful" by American scholars

Similarly the US/UK partnership -- though couched in cerebral state based interest -- is a relationship between two cousins -- they're the same people.

Like US/UK -- Afghan people have enjoyed preferential status in the Pakistani people's eyes -- do you think it's coincidental that Afghans were allowed non-symmetric benefits. You can live, work, go to school, hospitals without papers for 40 years -- this was not interest -- this was all endearment.

So I assure you that haram-khore or namak-harm is totally justified and relevant.

 

[A-Team]

Actually no -- again this is the mistake you make.

For example: the US state and people are pissed at Pakistan because they perceive a Pakistani betrayal -- and this has enormous impacts on US/Pakistan relationship. The Pakistani people are often referred to as "ungrateful" by American scholars

Similarly the US/UK partnership -- though couched in cerebral state based interest -- is a relationship between two cousins -- they're the same people.

Like US/UK -- Afghan people have enjoyed preferential status in the Pakistani people's eyes -- do you think it's coincidental that Afghans were allowed non-symmetric benefits. You can live, work, go to school, hospitals without papers for 40 years -- this was not interest -- this was all endearment.

So I assure you that haram-khore or namak-harm is totally justified and relevant.

Can't have it both ways, you did what you did because it was in your interests, you even sold Afghans when it was in your interests. Afghanistan would still be a shithole, being run by your proxies if not for the US intervention. So when its all interests on your side then it is all interests in our side.

Anyways call us whatever want, wont make a difference ?

 

[pakistani342]

Can't have it both ways, you did what you did because it was in your interests, you even sold Afghans when it was in your interests. Afghanistan would still be a shithole, being run by your proxies if not for the US intervention. So when its all interests on your side then it is all interests in our side.

Anyways call us whatever want, wont make a difference ?

1. No actually the two condition are not mutually exclusive -- as they're are not strictly orthogonal -- so strictly speaking you can have it both ways: not saying it's always true
2. For example Pakistan had to counter Afghanistan's PDP government's leveraging of the USSR in the Pak/Afghan spat -- however, Pakistan could not have accepted Afghan refugees or could have confined them to camps just on the other side of the Durand line -- allowing Afghan refugees inside Pakistan was and remains a great humanitarian gesture
3. So no Pakistan has payed an inordinate price for Afghan actions -- and that too despite the Afghan people's hostility towards Pakistan. Imagine if at the height of the war 7,000,000 Afghans were confined to camps in the middle on nowhere -- just picture that.

Anyways call us whatever want, wont make a difference ?

Oh it already has made a difference -- ask the poor Afghans who have to wait under open skies as they are being repatriated -- the below seldom has good consequences -- perhaps an honest internal dialog and learning from what Afghans have done wrong and continue to do wrong would make life a lot easier

 

[Sine Nomine]

@pakistani342 welldone

 

[pakistani342]

@pakistani342 welldone

Thank your for your kind words -- I wish I had more time -- but my interest in Afghanistan is now waning -- on the other hand I'm heartened that more members on this form seem to be taking a keen interest in Afghanistan.

 

[A-Team]

1. No actually the two condition are not mutually exclusive -- as they're are not strictly orthogonal -- so strictly speaking you can have it both ways: not saying it's always true
2. For example Pakistan had to counter Afghanistan's PDP government's leveraging of the USSR in the Pak/Afghan spat -- however, Pakistan could not have accepted Afghan refugees or could have confined them to camps just on the other side of the Durand line -- allowing Afghan refugees inside Pakistan was and remains a great humanitarian gesture
3. So no Pakistan has payed an inordinate price for Afghan actions -- and that too despite the Afghan people's hostility towards Pakistan. Imagine if at the height of the war 7,000,000 Afghans were confined to camps in the middle on nowhere -- just picture that.



Oh it already has made a difference -- ask the poor Afghans who have to wait under open skies as they are being repatriated -- the below seldom has good consequences -- perhaps an honest internal dialog and learning from what Afghans have done wrong and continue to do wrong would make life a lot easier

You can do better my friend

Anyways the refugees are being deported, the Talis are headquartered there, the routes are being closed whenever needed and you actually sent us to the stone age, so what else can Pakistan through at us

Anyways my hope and that of Ashraf Ghani was regional integration and us developing together but Pakistan is not playing ball so Afghanistan will and is finding alternative but it is also biting back as well even insignificant at this moment but it did bring up passionate oped by the esteemed sherry rehman

You maybe hearing the rumblings in the capital hill much louder than I do ,so I say this old banker has done a better job then any politician vis-a-vis bringing up the Afghan case.
/peace

 

[Sine Nomine]

Thank your for your kind words -- I wish I had more time -- but my interest in Afghanistan is now waning -- on the other hand I'm heartened that more members on this form seem to be taking a keen interest in Afghanistan.

I too don't have time,my interest of debate with Kabuli elites waned when I debated with saleh on Twitter and he banned me on another forum they also did same,I personally assume after interacting with Afghans and living among them that Pakistan has only two options annex it or build another berlin like wall,because Afghans have no capacity to take decisions for themselves they are manipulated by one or another.US played a clever game she still has got Taalibs as backup you see she has not designated them terrorists,if things will go out of her hands she simply will put them in charge of affairs.Kabul can only make things worst for us,drunken NA warlords are as trustable as wounded snake is heal him and it will bite you.Kabuli elites will join highest bidder,even when US is getting sick of there rampant corruption and bizzarei ethnic fights.I wish Afghahs peace and prosperity but states are something which are always hungry for good leadership,and I can't see any leader on Horizon of Afghanistan which is acceptable to people's from Amu Draya to Durand line.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

but Pakistan is not playing ball

Pakistan doesn't have to play ball when Afghanistan openly calls for dismemberment of Pakistan's western provinces and internationally accepted border... That too against a nation that has allow free movement of Afghan refugees across the country, a freedom no other State in the world allows.

Pakistan is a sovereign state, it is full within it's right to disallow the transit of goods/services of a nation it holds no over border trade with.

As for the claim of terrorism, it's well established Pakistan has more control of their land than Afghanistan does. The inability of the ANA to stand up doesn't equate to a full level State-sponsored Taliban.

Ingratitude isn't going to be treated with roses.

 

[pakistani342]

You can do better my friend

Whatever your disappointment -- I hope that at least you cannot accuse me irrational exuberance (to quote Greenspan). I also hope you cannot accuse me of not seating my arguments in history, facts and logic. I also hope you cannot accuse me of using different scales for Afghans vs Pakistanis.

Anyways the refugees are being deported, the Talis are headquartered there, the routes are being closed whenever needed and you actually sent us to the stone age, so what else can Pakistan through at us

As I've said my brother -- this is an internecine conflict now between Afghans and Pakistanis -- states are always abstract entities.

With the enemy you sip tea at flag meetings, you (should) treat him/her with respect if they surrender and send them home when hostilities are over. You sometimes go and visit them and trade old war stories.

When "your brother or neighbor or your cousin" betrays you -- the response is visceral -- if caught, he/she is tried for treason. If convicted he/she face an unduly harsh punishment, his/her family bears the onerous burden of shame.

The Afghans, from a Pakistani perspective are traitors -- family who are traitors -- and will unfortunately bear the burden of that treatment.

I must admit it has always puzzled me on why two human beings, the enemy and traitor, are treated so differently even when the transgression of the enemy are worse than the one who is the traitor -- but as strange as humanity's ways are, this is the burden Afghans have provoked onto themselves -- ironic how Ghani sab may have condemned six generations of Afghans to the curse he once brought up in his own interview.

Anyways my hope and that of Ashraf Ghani was regional integration and us developing together but Pakistan is not playing ball so Afghanistan will and is finding alternative but it is also biting back as well even insignificant at this moment but it did bring up passionate oped by the esteemed sherry rehman

My dear, there is no regional integration as far as Afghanistan is concerned [Chabar is not a natural deep water port, the Zaranj delaram highway is vulnerable to Taliban interdiction -- and Afghanistan's economy is imploding].

Regional integration, until humanity invents warp-drives or worm-holes is beholden to geography. Pakistan pays an enormous cost for not normalizing its relationship with India. The Pakistanis by comparison are many, their diaspora is vibrant, they were lucky to be connected to the sea. Afghans have compounded their predicament by squandering their already poor birthright at the door of none other than Modi.

You maybe hearing the rumblings in the capital hill much louder than I do ,so I say this old banker has done a better job then any politician vis-a-vis bringing up the Afghan case.
/peace

I have heard much much louder rumblings on Pakistan -- these rumblings dwarf those that accompanied the agonizing birth of Pakistan's nuclear program -- the US house is angry with Pakistanis as they should be. But Pakistan and Americans are not family -- they have been transactional allies brought together by histories random whims.

Afghans and Pakistanis are family -- and families are vicious to their treacherous own -- I do pity Afghans and I'm sure Pakistanis do too, on what is now unfolding on the poor Afghans and what is probably about to unfold.

And again: what did Afghans possibly hope achieve with all this antagonism -- they mistook gifts for entitlement -- their lot is going to be one sorry one.

I too don't have time,my interest of debate with Kabuli elites waned when I debated with saleh on Twitter and he banned me on another forum they also did same,I personally assume after interacting with Afghans and living among them that Pakistan has only two options annex it or build another berlin like wall,because Afghans have no capacity to take decisions for themselves they are manipulated by one or another.US played a clever game she still has got Taalibs as backup you see she has not designated them terrorists,if things will go out of her hands she simply will put them in charge of affairs.Kabul can only make things worst for us,drunken NA warlords are as trustable as wounded snake is heal him and it will bite you.Kabuli elites will join highest bidder,even when US is getting sick of there rampant corruption and bizzarei ethnic fights.I wish Afghahs peace and prosperity but states are something which are always hungry for good leadership,and I can't see any leader on Horizon of Afghanistan which is acceptable to people's from Amu Draya to Durand line.

The US did try to help -- but you can't blame us for watching out for our interests when the patient is hell bent on committing suicide.

 

[Kabira]

The solution is simple to so called Quetta taliban shura problem if it exist. As Pakistani minister Khawaja said 3-4 million Afghanis refugees need to go back, maybe by next year. After that they will ask Afghanistan if any Afghani is left behind in Pakistan so they can also deport them. If Afghanistan want Pakistan to let 4 million refugees live in Pakistan but some how magically pick apart taliban among them then they are day dreaming. If that was possible then Pakistan could have taken care of TTP long time ago.

 

[ConcealCarry]

Why is he "Spelling" the beans, it's not so hard to spell?

Our friends in Pakistan should listen to this with open heart and ears. This is not an Afghan speaking but one of your ambassador talking.

The truth is ( no hard feelings as an Afghan ) that there are no morality in state relations, so before one of you starts lecturing Afghans on being haram khor and garbage like that, I ask you to listen to one of your own.

___________________________-

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1770364016530222