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Musharraf Ki Yaad AAyi Us Kay Janay Kay Baad

I take back my ex pakistani comment.


Thank you sir.
I hope you change your views.

You will not necessarily agree on some issues which is natural but you should not question our patriotism towards our motherland.
It would be nice to have a healthy discussion rather than blaming each other!
 
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well said!!! if we can place zardari on the presidents seat... why not mush as well!!!
I believe many of us don't get out on election day to vote thus giving freehand to a minority who elect criminals,,, Also Musharaf prepared the ground for Zardari to come into power, PAK ppl had little to do if anything,,, Musharaf thru NRO cleared record of proven criminals & gave them way to come into assembly,,,

Then Baynazeer's murder was orchestrated to get sympathy-votes to those criminals who gathered in PPP,,,, they exploited bebe's popularity by gathering under the banner of PPP,,, In turn, those NRO-washed criminals elected Zardari,,, this cleverly played game resulted in zardari becoming president,,, Most of pakistanis were shocked i.e, they never wanted Zardari rather were conned into doing so...


Now the game being played is that ppl r being engrained that Mush was better than current govt. so that ppl would welcome him if he comes into politics,,,
 
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Thank you sir.
I hope you change your views.

You will not necessarily agree on some issues which is natural but you should not question our patriotism towards our motherland.
It would be nice to have a healthy discussion rather than blaming each other!

Patriotism alone is not gonna save this country. We need constructive critics from within our own borders. Not half way around the world. Hopefully one day we will all take that step. Rather bringing shariah law to america, we can work towards just getting law here in our own country.
 
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Patriotism alone is not gonna save this country. We need constructive critics from within our own borders. Not half way around the world. Hopefully one day we will all take that step. Rather bringing shariah law to america, we can work towards just getting law here in our own country.


Yes sir.
There are many educated and "mentally" literate people over here.
Sharia Law is a different topic....we sure will get united and will be a part of change.
Our heart is not half way away instead it is in Pakistan. Oversees Pakistanis are also contributing i.e. more than 5 billion $ a year sent to Pakistan..
There are many other examples...

Anyways, traitors have no border..they can be in Pakistan or they can be in the States..
We have to fight against foreign influence!
 
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The "us" here is just the upper middle and bourgeois class and his constituency of army brats (who may or may not be yet in the upper middle class but will most probably become a part of it).



I'm all harpy for Gen. Sahab. He should be happy in his dream that he somehow has a constituency here and dream of coming back, something he might never do.


When it's in your favor it's legit and true. And if it's not, it's fraud? I do not represent the upper class or "bourgeois" as you call them. I support him and will vote for him.

This response was to prove that he can win an election given his support is evidently visible.

Here's the latest:
15728_379141666918_156525751918_3891280_4209877_n.jpg



What sham Judiciary are you talking about? Come up with a concrete answer and arguments rather than juggling of words.

Here's what he meant by sham judiciary and democracy:

i- According to Transparency International, corruption in this country rose over 400% since the current government came to power. JUdiciary and lawyers are amongst top on the list of most corrupt in Pakistan.

ii- The office of incumbent CJP is in itself politcized to the extent that even NS had to admit that there are "People" (CJP in code words) involved in politics behind closed doors. Revealed in a news press conference when he publicly pledged support for judiciary to participate in constitutional matters. No where in this world would you expect judiciary to overstep or be consulted in such manner. Not even in banana republic would you find such Judicial activism. Judiciary implements law, safe guard the legal system and has no right to meddle in the affairs of other pillars of state.

iii- The new amendment does not require for any policital party to abide by a constitutional requirement to hold elections in a political party. A great win for democracy in Pakistan (I'm being sarcastic).

Further more, have you seen the economy? FDI levels? reserves? stock exchange? IMF/World bank loans? unemployment?
 
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When it's in your favor it's legit and true. And if it's not, it's fraud? I do not represent the upper class or "bourgeois" as you call them. I support him and will vote for him.

This response was to prove that he can win an election given his support is evidently visible.

You conveniently chose to ignore what I said when I posted the demographics and in your smugness that you somehow caught me trying to distort figures came up with a poor reply.

The latest ones at 160,000 do not mention city and the one before that was carried out when Facebook was facing a glitch and showing 2,000 of his fans living in Palo Alto.

It clears my reason about not posting the latest demographics. Nonetheless, Yyou just want to believe that the Absconder Commando has a huge popular base and that Facebook does not represent the opinion of only the bourgeois and upper middle class. The classes who cannot care less about democracy, voting and social welfare for they are already living comfortable lives.

i- According to Transparency International, corruption in this country rose over 400% since the current government came to power. JUdiciary and lawyers are amongst top on the list of most corrupt in Pakistan.

Firstly, Transparency International carries its "Corruption Perception Survey" across the world and gives and CPI index rating then. They carry out the survey about 10, precisely ten public sectors. If a public sector is at number 10 it means that it is the least corrupt among these public sectors, not among all of them. 10 specific because TI recognizes them as important to public dealing.

captureud.jpg


Source : http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/NCPS 2009/NCPS 2009 Report.pdf

Moving down to 6th is a big step forward and a clear indication of the people's trust in the courts.

Judiciary's ranking has improved amazingly since the revival of the judiciary after the lawyer's movement. It has to be acknowledged that lower courts still are marred by corruption and the NJP 2009 under the NJPMC is working towards improving it. The speed of civil litigation has improved considerably and the high courts worked extra hours (4-9pm) on select days over the past year to complete more than ten thousand cases that had been languishing for years.

De constructing your falsified claims is always easy. So much for the "top of the list".

I should also mention that there's a discrepancy in the figure of the "400 percent" increase in the "value" of corruption.

There are some anomalies as to when the "overall corruption" was around Rs. 45 billion. 2006 or 2002?

"In NCPS 2006 it was Rs 45 Billion"

"overall Corruption in 2002 has increased from Rs 45 Billion"

NCPS 2006 says Rs. 45 billion. NCPS 2002 doesn't give a figure in detailed report. This has been debated in a thread already as well.

ii- The office of incumbent CJP is in itself politcized to the extent that even NS had to admit that there are "People" (CJP in code words) involved in politics behind closed doors. Revealed in a news press conference when he publicly pledged support for judiciary to participate in constitutional matters. No where in this world would you expect judiciary to overstep or be consulted in such manner. Not even in banana republic would you find such Judicial activism. Judiciary implements law, safe guard the legal system and has no right to meddle in the affairs of other pillars of state.

I'll quote Dr. Farrukh Saleem:

Are our judges displaying judicial activism’?
Thursday, April 08, 2010
Comment

ISLAMABAD: Are our judges going beyond their appropriate powers and engaging in making law and not merely interpreting it? Are our judges making public policy through their decisions? Are our judges assigning new meaning to old words of our Constitution? Are our judges allowing their personal political values colour their judicial opinions?

‘Judicial activism’ is a political term used to describe “judicial rulings that are suspected to be based upon personal and political considerations other than existing law.” In other words, judicial activism means “judicial rulings that impose a personal biased interpretation by a given court of what a law means as oppose to what a neutral, unbiased observer would naturally interpret a law to mean.” Can the present Supreme Court be termed as being ‘judicially active’?

The term ‘judicial activism’ was coined in 1947 by Arthur Schlesinger, a Pulitzer Prize winner who served as President Kennedy’s ‘court historian’. Over the past six decades, since coinage the term, so much time and effort has been devoted by judges, lawyers, social scientists and philosophers that the determination of a court being ‘judicially active’ or not can now almost be a mechanical exercise. There are three major tests that can be applied in order to determine whether the present Supreme Court is being judicially active or not.

Test Number 1: Test of Majoritarianism - When and if a court invalidates or nullifies a policy or an action that was approved or endorsed through the democratic process the court is deemed to have become ‘judicially active’. Has the Pakistani Supreme Court judicially overturned a policy adopted through the democratic process?

Test Number 2: Test of Interpretive Stability - When and if a court ‘alters earlier decisions, doctrines or constitutional interpretation’ it is said to have become ‘judicially active’. Has the Pakistani Supreme Court amended, adjusted or mutated an earlier decision?

Test Number 3: Test of Specificity of Policy - When and if a court judicially establishes a policy as oppose to allowing discretion to the appropriate law-making organ the court is deemed to have become ‘judicially active’. Has the Pakistani Supreme Court actually established a public policy and denied, refused or rejected the National Assembly of Pakistan’s right to do so?

Clearly, the present Supreme Court has neither overturned any policy adopted through the democratic process nor has it judicially established a single public policy. To be certain, the judges have so far not gone beyond their appropriate powers. Furthermore, they have so far been merely interpreting law and there is absolutely no evidence that their personal values are colouring their judicial opinions.

Gallup Pakistan recently undertook a country-wide public opinion poll in which 57 per cent of all the respondents said that the Supreme Court is acting within its authority, 18 per cent said that the Supreme Court is acting beyond its mandate and 25 per cent were either unsure or gave no response (the poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 2 to 3 per cent and 95 per cent confidence level).

iii- The new amendment does not require for any policital party to abide by a constitutional requirement to hold elections in a political party. A great win for democracy in Pakistan (I'm being sarcastic).
Certainly a bad move but this does not nullify the improvements this wide range amendment has brought.

Further more, have you seen the economy? FDI levels? reserves? stock exchange? IMF/World bank loans? unemployment?

Fictitious economic growth based on hiding inflation behind subsidies and consumption led growth based on consumer financing has been busted time and again. The economy had to fall after a short term economic boom. And I do not deny positive steps taken. A sorry economic tale has been debated in the previous pages of this thread and you might want to take a look at the figures.

As for today; we are fighting a war across the tribal regions, the world is recovering from an economic crisis and we face huge electricity shortages.

It is easier to climb Mount Everest than to convince somebody who is unwilling to change his opinion. As somebody said on a forum I used to visit, "Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices..."
 
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Firstly, Transparency International carries its "Corruption Perception Survey" across the world and gives and CPI index rating then. They carry out the survey about 10, precisely ten public sectors. If a public sector is at number 10 it means that it is the least corrupt among these public sectors, not among all of them. 10 specific because TI recognizes them as important to public dealing.

That is completely incorrect the purpose of the index is to indicate the 10 most corrupt sectors in the country. Do not twist facts in to your own liking.

Moving down to 6th is a big step forward and a clear indication of the people's trust in the courts.

Guess who was President of Pakistan during the 2001 to 2008?

Judiciary's ranking has improved amazingly since the revival of the judiciary after the lawyer's movement. It has to be acknowledged that lower courts still are marred by corruption and the NJP 2009 under the NJPMC is working towards improving it. The speed of civil litigation has improved considerably and the high courts worked extra hours (4-9pm) on select days over the past year to complete more than ten thousand cases that had been languishing for years.

Completely, false. There were numerous off days and walk outs. People are fed up of such nuisance. Even people involved in the so called "Movement for free judiciary" have voiced their concerns on national TV.


Fictitious economic growth based on hiding inflation behind subsidies and consumption led growth based on consumer financing has been busted time and again. The economy had to fall after a short term economic boom. And I do not deny positive steps taken. A sorry economic tale has been debated in the previous pages of this thread and you might want to take a look at the figures.

Another false assumption based on media reports. The GDP figures are verified by WB, IMF and other bodies. FDI, reserves, employment and development were part of realistic growth. Nothing is perfect but to deny the stupendous growth during his tenure is outrageous.

Certainly a bad move but this does not nullify the improvements this wide range amendment has brought.

Please enlighten my perspective. What good has come to the economy? well being of the people? does it provide for roti, karpra and makan?
 
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That is completely incorrect the purpose of the index is to indicate the 10 most corrupt sectors in the country. Do not twist facts in to your own liking.

Again, you are factually incorrect. I provided you a source but you did not care to check it. Hence, I'll provide you with a screesnhot :-

capturedh.jpg


Does it say these are the ten most corrupt? Is TI bonkers and assumes that these are automatically the ten most ccorrupt sectors?

No. They take ten specific sectors because of their importance and rank among them. Next time, check facts and sources and don't lie again.

not believe in facts and figures, rather your belief solely lies in personality worshiping.

Guess who was President of Pakistan during the 2001 to 2008?

This is the greatest joke ever. You are trying to prove that Absconder Commando deserves credit for improvement of accountability in the judiciary. Dictators don't believe in laws, regulations and Constitution. They twist arms and roll their tanks.

We saw the greatest efforts aimed at improving the judiciary when the judges of the higher courts, both federal and provincial, were sent packing in an illegal order and were kept in house arrest for long periods of time. Indeed efforts at improving the judiciary involved a dictator faced with a coming unacceptable decision choosing to lock up all the judges and install his own judges, again illegally.

March 9, 2007 and Novemeber 3, 2007 saw concrete efforts by Absconder Commando at improving the judicial process. You also chose to ignore the NJP 2009 and the formation of the NJPMC for they are the efforts of Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhary.

Next time try to come with a logic that at least makes sense.

Completely, false. There were numerous off days and walk outs. People are fed up of such nuisance. Even people involved in the so called "Movement for free judiciary" have voiced their concerns on national TV.

I accepted that there is considerable corruption among lower courts. High Courts are working efficiently and are showing a great care for citizen problems. You replied in a wrong fashion as if High Courts are not functioning well.

Some people in the lawyer community themselves have become thugs and are carrying out protests in courts all the time. They need to be tamed.

Another false assumption based on media reports. The GDP figures are verified by WB, IMF and other bodies. FDI, reserves, employment and development were part of realistic growth. Nothing is perfect but to deny the stupendous growth during his tenure is outrageous.

I have debated economic growth in the previous pages. Dr Meekal Aziz's recent contributions in The News prove my point. Subsidies were used to hide inflation. Massive consumer financing was allowed and Pakistan has the highest interest rates in Asia, thanks to the banking cartel that developed under their nose. KSE crashed twice, both times due to insider trading and shorting by the big bullies. No one was charged thanks to the close relationship between the thief Shortcut Aziz and the people involved. Another pointless privatization procedure was launched. KESC, HBL, PTCL and UBL were sold off in sham deals marked by corruption. PTCL's profits have declined since its privatization and we haven't even received the sale money from Etisalat. KESC is performing at its worst. HBL and UBL were sold off at values less than their operating revenue. PSM was being sold off at the price of a cotton bale and when stopped got Shortcut Aziz angry and was a major contributor towards the March 9, 2007 illegal removal of the CJ. 2002-2006 saw an unprecedented global economic boom and when the bubble burst we crashed bad. Nothing was done for a lingering electricity crisis. I can deconstruct more but I guess this is enough.

Please enlighten my perspective. What good has come to the economy? well being of the people? does it provide for roti, karpra and makan?
I'm sick and tired of hearing this BS. It's a constitutional amendment. It is aimed at creating a better constitutional process not aimed at providing roti. Has the sasti roti project stopped? Has the BISP stopped giving out support and loans? Criticism for the sake of criticism is pointless.

It has become clear to me that you are neither aware of how national economies work, nor do you understand even a bit of how our legal system works and the only thing you can do properly is falsify facts and ignore real facts.
 
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This is getting absurd and ridiculous. Your views are based on assumptions rather than factual information. Even people in the media circles evidently have proclaimed that there is no improvement in the judicial system what so ever. It is exactly what it was or maybe worse.

How would I sound saying the economy is super powerful and growing without any factual proof?

have debated economic growth in the previous pages. Dr Meekal Aziz's recent contributions in The News prove my point. Subsidies were used to hide inflation. Massive consumer financing was allowed and Pakistan has the highest interest rates in Asia, thanks to the banking cartel that developed under their nose. KSE crashed twice, both times due to insider trading and shorting by the big bullies. No one was charged thanks to the close relationship between the thief Shortcut Aziz and the people involved. Another pointless privatization procedure was launched. KESC, HBL, PTCL and UBL were sold off in sham deals marked by corruption. PTCL's profits have declined since its privatization and we haven't even received the sale money from Etisalat. KESC is performing at its worst. HBL and UBL were sold off at values less than their operating revenue. PSM was being sold off at the price of a cotton bale and when stopped got Shortcut Aziz angry and was a major contributor towards the March 9, 2007 illegal removal of the CJ. 2002-2006 saw an unprecedented global economic boom and when the bubble burst we crashed bad. Nothing was done for a lingering electricity crisis. I can deconstruct more but I guess this is enough.

Funny, how you're advocating for free judiciary and what not. Here you are with more assumptions and accusations. What happened to innocent until proven otherwise?

If you have proof file papers in "free" court! and stop spreading ridiculous accusations.
 
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Funny thing is people type in one liners and then follow with LOLs ...

Twitter will help supporters following Musharraf in Pakistan. Obviously he likes to use new tech but unfortunately Pakistanis lack tolerance so they try find fun in everything.

Google Mushrraf and Gilgit Baltistan and one can easliy learn about the level of support for gen. Mushrraf.

If that doesn't satisfy you then just simply look at the result of last elections where PML-Q was able to win seats from all 4 provinces even afetr supporting Gen. Musharraf. OTOH, NS won seats in 2 provinces.

Now my turn to LOL.

:pakistan:


goolge zaid hamid and ull be amazed to know how many ppl support him. yet no one turned up for his takmeel e pakistan show.

and pml q will not be supportin musharraf but their own candidate. they have already taken a big hit by supportin mushi in last elections. have a bet with me. next election will be only bw ppp and pml n. tell ur mushi to stay in dubai. remember his confidence before elections that he is damn sure his party will win? :lol:

there is no way he will get any vote from balochistan. no vote from khyber for the mess he created. no vote from interior sindh which is ppp. karachi is mqm's and i very much doubt if they will sacrifice their vote bank. coming to punjab... again south punjab is mostly ppp. north and central punjab belongs to pml n and pml q. gilgit baltistan is ppp.

so i congrat u today for the two three seats which u will win in next elections. :yahoo:
 
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goolge zaid hamid and ull be amazed to know how many ppl support him. yet no one turned up for his takmeel e pakistan show.

and pml q will not be supportin musharraf but their own candidate. they have already taken a big hit by supportin mushi in last elections. have a bet with me. next election will be only bw ppp and pml n. tell ur mushi to stay in dubai. remember his confidence before elections that he is damn sure his party will win? :lol:

there is no way he will get any vote from balochistan. no vote from khyber for the mess he created. no vote from interior sindh which is ppp. karachi is mqm's and i very much doubt if they will sacrifice their vote bank. coming to punjab... again south punjab is mostly ppp. north and central punjab belongs to pml n and pml q. gilgit baltistan is ppp.

so i congrat u today for the two three seats which u will win in next elections. :yahoo:


Sir jee, I suugest you go through the results of 2008 elections you would have discovered PML-Q won 40 odd seats in the national assembly. They were won as you yourself put it during support for Gen. Musharraf. 3rd most in the election, that too when he was not at his peak of popularity. Imagine, if things change. Politics is all about perception, if democracy does not serve the purpose of roti, kapra or makan people would change their perspective as clearly evident these days. A prime example of such a scenario is Kyrgyzstan where the most popular government in decades was thrown out of office due to similar reasons. The point being it does not take long for public perception to change.

If you ask a man on ground realities today. He will clearly state he was better off during Gen. Musharraf's tenure than the he is today. As I recalll one individual put it as "meri jaib main paisa tha us waqt abh nahi hai" on national tv. :pakistan:
 
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Sir jee, I suugest you go through the results of 2008 elections you would have discovered PML-Q won 40 odd seats in the national assembly. They were won as you yourself put it during support for Gen. Musharraf. 3rd most in the election, that too when he was not at his peak of popularity. Imagine, if things change. Politics is all about perception, if democracy does not serve the purpose of roti, kapra or makan people would change their perspective as clearly evident these days. A prime example of such a scenario is Kyrgyzstan where the most popular government in decades was thrown out of office due to similar reasons. The point being it does not take long for public perception to change.

If you ask a man on ground realities today. He will clearly state he was better off during Gen. Musharraf's tenure than the he is today. As I recalll one individual put it as "meri jaib main paisa tha us waqt abh nahi hai" on national tv. :pakistan:

lik i said pml q will not be supporting musharraf. and if u are aware of ground politics, its very different than how u see it. pml q itself has no vote bank. all those ppl who won were those who had their own vote bank. such as MNA from jhang area etc.
if you go and stand for pml q, u will hardly get any vote. for other parties its very different. pml n and ppp even if they make a donkey stand in their respective areas, that donkey will win. this is called party vote.
and about the ground situation, well again u have to see it in a very different way. no one in baluchistan and khyber will vote for musharraf even they get zero electricity. similar is for interior sindh. karachi and hyderabad are mqm areas and we all know mqm will never sacrifice their vote bank in their two only cities. punjab is the only province where he can get some vote from which will again be not enough.
 
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