"Musharraf exemplifies a quality Indian politicians should emulate" - Karan Thapar

[XYON]

The quality of our politicians is our problem.If you whose biased views seem to suggest that politicians in India can assume office by using force then you are greatly mistaken.The people who come into the office by 'gunda gardi' as you say are in reality the minor percentage and face severe penalties if ever exposed.Our democracy is OUR democracy,i don't see how it affects you

The last thing we need is war-monger coming to our country and telling us what our politicians should be like

NEWSWEEK report says otherwise. Try reading up before making tall and baseless claims! - http://www.newsweek.com/id/188166

And I agree with you that the sub-standard quality of your politicians IS your problem and THANK-GOD not ours! Again, please continue with your sub-standard politicians by all means as they correctly represent the quality and content of your Mother India (barring the self-imposed delusion of India Shining Of-Course)!

And Musharraf a war monger? Did you come out of your deep slumber from a mountainous cave recently because it was your PM, Sonia and the Indian Army Chief who were mongering war and limited strikes against Pakistan only a few months back!! Whats the proverb for it?...oh yeah.....POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!

 

[XYON]

Very sad to see that Indian democracy has reached to such lows that their politicians are now given advice to learn from a military dictator. And not only a military dictator but a military dictator who's policies have brought his country to be considered as a failed state.

That remains a personal opinion as compared to the popular one!

 

[Khajur]

Beg to differ on this one. Indian Polititions are equally answerable to the public and the media. Media is not termed as a pole of democracy for nothing. They have an important role to play. I have huge regards for Karan Thapar as a television interviewer he's one of the best. I have seen many Indian polititions shying awayfrom a public debate.

when i say Indian Politicians accountable to only to the Parliament, it implictly mean the citizen of the country,afterall its they who elect our parliamentarians.


Karan Thapar may be a leading television interviewer as he is good at holding an engaging Q & A session,i would never consider him a serious thinker when it comes writing own original columns.

" Musharraf also I admire. He mentions that you may not like wat he says but atleast he dares to speak it out in front of hostile audience "

Its not exactly a hostile audience by any means who invite Musharraf to new delhi with special chartered plane .

Musharraf didnt say anything new,but only reiterated previously known opinion with extra boldness(unrestrained) as he is out of power and his statements mean nothing in real policy terms.Then again he did his best to dodge few awkwards Qs posed to him.

" I have seen many Indian polititions shying awayfrom a public debate ."

come on , R u kidding??
cant u see politicians coming to so many talk shows aired on national tv channels debating various issues to the extent of boring u to death almost every day ??

 

[Khajur]

I agree with you. The quality of your politicians represents the quality of your uneducated and poor masses indeed. What approval of the people? Your politicians come into office by ghunda gardi, corruption etc. Only a minor percentage may be an exception to this rule. Your kind of democracy, where thieves, murderers and thugs are elected to the highest offices, is indeed the kind of Indian democracy the world refers to. God save teh rest of the world from such a perverted democracy! Amen!

who can debate with a person who makes such blanket sweeping statements??

All i can say- whatever floats ur boat...

 

[Jihad]

If you do not look in to the particulars, the above statement may appear to be accurate, however; it not the truth or rather it leaves out too much to be the truth.

Musharraf, an army man? Yes

Became a dictator after the coup? Unless dictator means means different things to you and to me, then yes. Pakistani society was never, in it's entire history, more free, than it was under Musharraf.

What dictator has ever tolerated the kinds of criticism Musharraf did? What kind of Dictator has ushered in a mushrooming of media?

Does any Indian or Idian politician have anything to learn from Musharraf, that is for honest, well meaning and kind spirited indians to decide - and of course Musharraf, history will judge, but for those Pakistanis who imagine mobs in the streets is what democracy is about, who imagine that democracy is about political dynasties, who think of political parties as inheritance and legacy to be distributed with in a single family and their cronies, and who cannot stomach the fact that a Fauji arose to speak honestly and plainly to the people of Pakistan and who raised Pakistan from a country near default to a country who economy doubled under his leadership and Pakistanis once again saw hope in the idea of Pakistan -- The ordinary people of Pakistan will not forever be your play things, will not for long be just so many numbers you can move to a voting poll by promising them a meal and patronge. And Pakistan will be free of the likes of these so called politicians who are but crooks and murderers and in veins treachery flows as if blood. For these the name, Musharraf, is a disinfectant to them - for us, the ordinary people fo Pakistan, we will remember, admire and love a honest, plain speaking, patriot who reminded us that Pakistan comes first, and I for one will always remember the day I felt free and a complet Pakistani, when, in a midnight speech, Musharrraf told Pakistanis the truth, "we have hit rock bottom" - for me optimism for reborn in the speech and I hope more Pakistanis will see through the anachronism that are Pakistani policial parties and politicians.

Mr. muse, you hit the spot.
Your post is excellent, I can feel and understand your pride which you had during his era, unfortunately, certain Pakistanis don't know what's good for them, they are infected with this call for "democracy" while millions of Pakistanis have grave living standards.
Why do people actually call Musharraf a dictator? Technically, he was if you look at it, but in reality, Pakistan was a modern society, how can a dictator fight for women rights and actually improve them?
How can a dictator help transform our farmers economy and double it both in quality and quantity?
How can this "dictator" put Pakistan on the world map, pump nationalistic pride in Pakistanis and make us feel proud of our achievements and of our nations?
What dictator? Just because he took matters in his own hands sometimes? Has it brought us harm? NO.

But hey, the west looks at us and thinks we're a failed state, and who can blame them? Our own countrymen/women are running on the streets shouting everything except knowing what the best would be for Pakistan.
It's a damn shame...
Ohwell, someone who spent 8 years in prison for corruption charges and who hasn't probed any investigation for his wife comes to show how well educated and informed our Pakistani public are, they're easy to manipulate it seems, why trade an ex-Military general and war hero, someone who actually fought against India and knows how it's like, someone with such experience and such honesty in matters related with Pakistan, how could our own goddamn people turn him in for the likes of ZARDARI?

Sometimes I seriously am troubled when thinking of these things, the "Sab Se Pehle Pakistan" feeling is completely gone, rescue whatever you can, this ship is going downwards, and all because of the choice of the people it seems.

 

[niaz]

Hon Jihad,

I concur your views. However I would like to add that good governance has nothing to do with democracy or dictatorship. In fact there are numerous instances where a country has progressed at accelerated pace because of a strong man who could push reforms thru, without worrying about public opinion.

Hitler took power in 1933 and by 1939 he transformed Germany from a defeated downtrodden country to a world industrial and military power. Kamal Ata Turk did the same for Turkey. In more recent times; Lee Kuan Yew, who took power in Singapore as Prime minister in 1959, separated his country from Malaysian Federation in 1965 and turned her into first As an Tiger. He ruled Singapore with iron fist until 1990. He is still active as Minister Mentor.

Mahatir Mohammed, who was PM of Malayasia from 1981 to 2003, was responsible for removing most the Supreme Court judges 1988 virtually ending the independence of Malaysian judiciary. However he turned Malaysia into another Asian Tiger and is respected in Pakistan and thru out Islamic world.

Iran under Raza Shah was a very progressive country with economy rivaling those of the West. Dubai’s progress is also phenomenal because her rulers push thru legislation without cumbersome debates in the parliament; media as well as the mullahs dare not utter a word against them.

In Pakistan’s context, our problem has been that we have not yet learnt to tolerate opposing views. NS and BB did not even talk to each other during the nineties. Even our civilian leaders behave like dictators. Opposition begin their efforts to the bring down the democratic gov't from the very first day. Regret to say that religious parties are the worst; nowhere is Islam exploited more than it is in Pakistan. During the days of ZA Bhutto I was still in Pakistan. I found it very amusing to hear very respectable people while sitting in Karachi Gymkhana and drinking beer; were talking of installing Nizame Mustafa!

Root of our misfortune is lack of statesmanship in our leaders; it has nothing to do with dictatorship or democracy.

 

[fatman17]

"criticism" is something which is difficult to accept / gulp in our cultures!!! Musharraf did this very well and then was always ready with his justification!!!

dictator or no dictator!

 

[qsaark]

Root of our misfortune is lack of statesmanship in our leaders; it has nothing to do with dictatorship or democracy.

Here you go. However we have also seen what happened to Germany of Hitler and what happened in Iran of Reza Shah. Good governance has indeed nothing to do with the democracy or dictatorship but with the caliber of the person in-charge. With ultimate power also comes ultimate ignorance and there have been few leaders who managed to keep themselves sane albeit of their powers. Unfortunately, these kinds of leaders don’t born very often in Pakistan and/or in any part of the world. Hence a democratic system was established in the ancient Greece. The reasoning behind a democratic system is to discuss matters thoroughly before making a decision. Two minds are better than one and three are better than two. Iskandar Mirza, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haque and Parvez Musharraf, none of them exhibited the qualities of a leader of high caliber. Indus water treaty, operation Gibraltar, one unit system, Dhaka fall, Afghan war, Siachin, Kargill, and finally WOT, are all the results of the very wrong policies from the chain of the dictators.

 

[fatman17]

The reasoning behind a democratic system is to discuss matters thoroughly before making a decision.

right! and our politicians are doing this!!!

 

[qsaark]

The reasoning behind a democratic system is to discuss matters thoroughly before making a decision.

right! and our politicians are doing this!!!

So what to do? rollup the democracy (good or bad) once again? And what good you see coming out of that?

Iskandar Mirza rolled up the democracy what happened? we got Bhutto and Ayub Khan.

Ayub Khan defeated Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah by rigging, what happened? We signed Indus water treaty (lost three water reservoirs), got ourselves into Op Gibraltar and a war, and alienated the East Pakistan.

Yahya took power, what happened? We lost Dhaka, tens of thousands of para and military personnels ended up in the Indian prisons. Hamud ur Rahman commision report had held several senior military officers responsible for the Dhaka fall and reccommended their court martial. Court Martial aside, they were promoted, and given burial with full military honour after their demise.

Zia hanged Bhutto, what happened? We got ourselves into Afghan swamp, Heroin and Kalashnikov culture, lost Siachin.

Musharraf rolled-up democracy, what happened? The bread that used to sell for Rs 1.00 reached to Rs 5-6. The economical progress was measured by the number of cell phones sold and by the numbers of cars on the roads. To achieve short term benefits, profitable state owned assets were sold. For few dollars, innocent men, kids and even women were sold to the Americans. No case, no trial, no defence, what exactly did we gain by doing all that? more lectures from under secretary level Americans? If politicians were so bad and Musharraf was so sincere, why NRO? why BB and NS were allowed to return back? Musharraf had good 8 years, why he did not attempt to bring forward an alternative leadership who could counter the influence of BB and NS? Choudhuris of Gujrat? this was the best he could bring forward? Hundreds of Army Officers were sent on deputation as the heads of several civilian Institutions and departments, what happened? the performance got better (PTCL, KESC, WAPDA, PSC are only few names) or the bribe rate came down? What is the salary of a COAS and President? How come Musharraf is making his palace-type banglow in Chak Shahzad?

What good exactly came out from rolling up the democratic system over and over again? We became pre-war Germany? Or we became Singapore? Or we became one of the richest G-8? Forget about this, these are big things. Did we manage to resolve Kashmir issue? again a biggie. Lets talk about smaller goals, unemployment? corruption? justice? education? power generation? where did we improve exactly? Fine, the Politicians are *** holes, they are not capable of doing anything, but what Military rule gave us?

 

[XYON]

who can debate with a person who makes such blanket sweeping statements??

All i can say- whatever floats ur boat...

I am not making the factual statement, NEWSWEEK (see the link in my post above) is! And you are right about the debate part!

All I can say - whatever SINKS yours!

 

[SSGPA1]

If u are takling about Modi leaving karan Thapers interview,let me tell u that happens if the interviewer insist on putting u in awkward situation ignoring ur public status.

This is the difference between Musharraf and an Indian poilitician ... because of the public stature, it is more important to answer the question.

 

[SSGPA1]

Musharraf rolled-up democracy, what happened? The bread that used to sell for Rs 1.00 reached to Rs 5-6. The economical progress was measured by the number of cell phones sold and by the numbers of cars on the roads. To achieve short term benefits, profitable state owned assets were sold. For few dollars, innocent men, kids and even women were sold to the Americans. No case, no trial, no defence, what exactly did we gain by doing all that? more lectures from under secretary level Americans? If politicians were so bad and Musharraf was so sincere, why NRO? why BB and NS were allowed to return back? Musharraf had good 8 years, why he did not attempt to bring forward an alternative leadership who could counter the influence of BB and NS? Choudhuris of Gujrat? this was the best he could bring forward? Hundreds of Army Officers were sent on deputation as the heads of several civilian Institutions and departments, what happened? the performance got better (PTCL, KESC, WAPDA, PSC are only few names) or the bribe rate came down? What is the salary of a COAS and President? How come Musharraf is making his palace-type banglow in Chak Shahzad?

Musharraf gave the feel good feeling to Pakistanis which no other leader was able to give .. Pakistanis believed in 'Pakistan first' which is a slogan given by Musharraf ... Musharraf got rid of Bugti, he made Gawader, Musharraf's policies saved Gidani and ship breaking industry ... gold miners started coming to Pakistan ... Musharraf govt. got rid of the IMF

JF-17, Augusta 90-B, the great road network in Balochistan these are works of Musharraf now compare his time withat of Nawaz Sharif and BB.

bread become expensive but people had the money to buy that bread!

Dollar was trading in mid sixties ... People claim that financial figures provided by Musharraf were not real but they forget that international instituions would never trade with Pakistan if our figures were incorrect.

Not one single financial institution raised doubts over any financial figures provided by the Musharraf regime.

 

[Rafael]

So what to do? rollup the democracy (good or bad) once again? And what good you see coming out of that?

Iskandar Mirza rolled up the democracy what happened? we got Bhutto and Ayub Khan.

Ayub Khan defeated Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah by rigging, what happened? We signed Indus water treaty (lost three water reservoirs), got ourselves into Op Gibraltar and a war, and alienated the East Pakistan.

Yahya took power, what happened? We lost Dhaka, tens of thousands of para and military personnels ended up in the Indian prisons. Hamud ur Rahman commision report had held several senior military officers responsible for the Dhaka fall and reccommended their court martial. Court Martial aside, they were promoted, and given burial with full military honour after their demise.

Zia hanged Bhutto, what happened? We got ourselves into Afghan swamp, Heroin and Kalashnikov culture, lost Siachin.

Musharraf rolled-up democracy, what happened? The bread that used to sell for Rs 1.00 reached to Rs 5-6. The economical progress was measured by the number of cell phones sold and by the numbers of cars on the roads. To achieve short term benefits, profitable state owned assets were sold. For few dollars, innocent men, kids and even women were sold to the Americans. No case, no trial, no defence, what exactly did we gain by doing all that? more lectures from under secretary level Americans? If politicians were so bad and Musharraf was so sincere, why NRO? why BB and NS were allowed to return back? Musharraf had good 8 years, why he did not attempt to bring forward an alternative leadership who could counter the influence of BB and NS? Choudhuris of Gujrat? this was the best he could bring forward? Hundreds of Army Officers were sent on deputation as the heads of several civilian Institutions and departments, what happened? the performance got better (PTCL, KESC, WAPDA, PSC are only few names) or the bribe rate came down? What is the salary of a COAS and President? How come Musharraf is making his palace-type banglow in Chak Shahzad?

What good exactly came out from rolling up the democratic system over and over again? We became pre-war Germany? Or we became Singapore? Or we became one of the richest G-8? Forget about this, these are big things. Did we manage to resolve Kashmir issue? again a biggie. Lets talk about smaller goals, unemployment? corruption? justice? education? power generation? where did we improve exactly? Fine, the Politicians are *** holes, they are not capable of doing anything, but what Military rule gave us?

You are very right sir, Musharaff had 8 whole years with absolutely no or very little opposition..but what did we get? I bet we never had so much American influence in the history of Pakitsan what we have now..and Who is responsible? Our land once use to produce more than our need and we were exporting wheat and look at us now, who is responsible? We never had such power shortage in the country and look us at now...The bread which we use to buy at less than Rs 1 is now available at Rs 5.

Our politicians are corrupt we all know but Our army too didnt bring us any good.

 

[Rafael]

Musharraf gave the feel good feeling to Pakistanis which no other leader was able to give .. Pakistanis believed in 'Pakistan first' which is a slogan given by Musharraf ... Musharraf got rid of Bugti, he made Gawader, Musharraf's policies saved Gidani and ship breaking industry ... gold miners started coming to Pakistan ... Musharraf govt. got rid of the IMF

JF-17, Augusta 90-B, the great road network in Balochistan these are works of Musharraf now compare his time withat of Nawaz Sharif and BB.

Although I am not a big fan of BB and N.S but my point is any govt could have done that given it rules the country for 8 long years without any opposition and besides, JF-17, Augusta 90-B, the great road network in Balochistan all pre-date Musharraf. They were only completed in his time, were started in BB and NS's time.




bread become expensive but people had the money to buy that bread!

and who said that???

Dollar was trading in mid sixties ... People claim that financial figures provided by Musharraf were not real but they forget that international instituions would never trade with Pakistan if our figures were incorrect.Not one single financial institution raised doubts over any financial figures provided by the Musharraf regime.

Do u belive that shaukat aziz did actually help pakistan??? one questio.n for you- why is he so reluctant to come back to pakistan and defend his economical policies??