More than 30 Years. Effect on Pakistan

[mjnaushad]

After the first Afghan war when soviet attacked many Afghan fled to Pakistan. And after so many years they are still here. When will they leave. And how are they effecting Pakistan Economically and Traditionally. And after keeping them all these years why there is hate in many of there hearts for Pakistan.

 

[Watani]

^ Look, I have explained this in other threads as well and will tell it again;

The political issue between Pakistan and Afghanistan started since Pakistan's independence, not because Pakistan was independent but because NWFP had to choose to stay with either Pakistan or either India, permanently. And all this while Afghanistan's Emir and British Empire clearly had a deal that NWFP will be returned to Afghanistan after their contracted is over, which would be in 1993. But it never happened and that has upset many politicians in Afghanistan. It might not have upset Afghans if the land was given to Pakistan legally, but together with the land also many Pashtuns were parted from each other and that was one of the reasons why Afghanistan had weakened so damn much. Pashtuns on both sides still welcomed each other and Pashtuns on both sides still saw both Afghanistan and NWFP as their home.

And also the fact that ISI has been biggest supporter of Taliban has upset quiet some Afghans, and even I remember how my Pakistani neighbours were praising Taliban when they were in Afghanistan only but since Taliban also reached Pakistan those very same neighbours of mine curse Afghans and Pashtuns by calling us Talibani terrorists. So many Afghans wonder why Pakistan was supporting Taliban during their time in Afghanistan, but turned their back on them when they also came alive in Pakistan? It was your government who was a big support of Taliban and therefore many people (even Pakistani's I met) are sure Pakistani government know what's going on with Taliban but isn't doing anything so they can get money from USA.

And now about the hatred, Afghans are upset with their own government plus with Pakistani government, mainly because of Taliban. Pakistan was also supporter of Hekmatyar who has killed thousands of people in Kabul only, plus Pakistani government set a camp in Pakistan for all anti-Daud Khan idiots and result of which was death of Daud Khan. And as soon as Daud Khan past away, Afghanistan's days in hell started. Afghans never hated Pakistani civilians but when it comes to politics, arguments do occur and they might say something which they would never have said if they were calm. Hope my post made at least something clear and you understand why we never got along politically.

 

[muse]

mjnaushad

More than 80% of those remaining are 3rd generation and whose parents were from Nanganhar province -- in other words they are born in Pakistan, and somewhere along the way, InshaAllah, the Pakistani state and nation must recognize them as Pakistan - not just them but the millions more who were born in Pakistan.


Watani

Truth be told, from Ahmad Shah Masood, Rabbani, Hikmatyar, Pir Saeb Gilani, Sayyaf, to Mullah Omar, have all belonged to Pakistan. From all ethnicities, they belonged to Pakistan, even as these "bewafa" belonged to others at the same time.

The reason some Afghan hate Pakistan is that they have "ehsaas e kam boodi" - that's just the way it is and it will change in it's own time. We hear about "Parandeh par namizaney ke ISI na danay", but the reason some Afghan hate Pakistan in reality is that they are stuck in cold war mentality - komo yahni Khuda va Nist be mani eh "nist".

 

[Watani]

^ If that was the case then Afghans still would have had issues with countries like Tajikistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Russia and you name it. Pakistan has politically been involved in Afghanistan since a very long time and I don't know what Pakistani government's political goal was in Afghanistan, but it always has turned disastrous for Afghans and Afghanistan. Indeed many Afghans are still not over the war and still are mentality stuck in the past wars, but it has got nothing to do with 'Ehsas-e-Kambudi' for sure. It started off with NWFP, took it's turning point after Daud Khan's death, and went in an immerse speed during/after Taliban.

 

[muse]

but it has got nothing to do with 'Ehsas-e-Kambudi' for sure

Oh yeah, for sure. You know why no problem with Uzbekistan or Tajikistan? Cuz they would not let any Afghan, regardless of ethnicity in -- Afghans found refuge in 2 places - Pakistan and Iran -- in Iran, the Afghan can work as construction laborers and get their ***** kicjked in the streets by Iranians who don't want them there -- and of course there is that old stand by, Pakistan, where Afghans can do construction work for even less money than in Iran, but they can also do any business they want, and where untill the Karzai regime, they did not have to register and where, even now, they have more economic opportunity than in Afghanistan

You have a point about Daud, He wanted to kick some Dal khor *** and guess what, now all of Afghanistan is Dal khor -- that is the source of the ehsaas e kambudi -- had the Afghan been taught to approach Pakistanis and for that matter even Iranian on a human level, instead of the absurd histories they are taught in Afghan schools, such a ehsaas would never exists -- you know wataani, a good friend, he used to be a Afghan Army Col. (and a nationalist) escaped when the Mujahideen came to power, well, his mother became ver ill and passed away, but she insisted that she be buried in Islamabad because that is where she was happiest.

You seem a good bit younger and so I am going to dispense some free advise -- the hate stuff will only end up consuming those who do the hating -- ther is no Afghan who does not have heritage and as they say Raag va reeshey in Pakistan and vice versa - time to stop imagining that you live in cold war times - those wars ended 30 years ago. Time for the new stuff.

 

[Watani]

^ For your information, Afghanistan got Tajiks (from Tajikistan) and Uzbek's (from Uzbekistan) in large numbers and huge numbers of Tajiks fled to Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, but because those Uzbek's and Tajiks have permanently asked for that country's passport, it has never been known how many Afghans exactly live there. Iranian companies gave Afghans jobs because they worked for lower amount than Iranians which irritated Iranians and therefore acted very ill towards Afghans. But look, now many Iranian women have left Iran because they feel suffocated and you know what we Afghans do with them? We gave them freedom to work wherever they want and those women now make fortune in Kabul. There are also many Chinese in Afghanistan who work for less but we don't kick them, we welcome them. That's the difference between us and Iranians.

But the reason I won't blame Iranians much is because they haven't accepted any aid for Afghan refugees and nor have they been politically involved much with us. Pakistani government accepted us in turn for billions of dollars on aid and they were also hoping like that Afghans will not think about NWFP any more, plus they kept being politically involved with us. And Daud Khan wanted talks about NWFP and he had his issues about the land being taken away from Afghanistan illegally. He didn't have any form of hatred for Pakistani nation but your government made sure he is dead and thanks to that Afghanistan is ruined as well.

As there are Afghans who love Pakistan, there are also millions of Pashtuns in NWFP who love Afghanistan and before there were many non-Pashtuns from Pakistan came to study in Afghanistan. Mostly they were Gujjar. And for you talking is very simple, but imagine yourself in a country with thirty years of war, three million lost lives, foreign countries keep interfering for their benefit and no hope for peace at all, no food at all, no money at all and no education at all. How would you feel?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Pakistan's meddling in Afghanistan is regrettable but i guess that would be done by any neighboring country to protect its boundaries & strategic objectives. History has many examples of it. As Afghanistan has issue with the Durand Line, for which they had always opposed Pakistan through many ways, it was the sole Muslim country who opposed Pakistan entry into UN. After that also they raised the boundary issue through different means. And nearly all afghan govts were pro indian & wanted to create problems for Pakistan for this piece of land.

Russian invasion of Afghanistan was no fault of Pakistan, it was due to the internal problems for which Russia wanted to benefit by invading Afghanistan.

But still Pakistan out of its own security, helped the Afghan People & supported them in their war against the Russian invaders.

All the commanders were Afghani themselves who fought for their homeland. Good or Bad qualities of theirs was no fault of Pakistan. They had support among the local people and had people under them to fight with.

As for the reason why Pakistan supported the taliban people or govt was just because for the first time Afghanistan had a govt which was not pro-indian and did not wanted to create trouble for pakistan.

Pakistan had / has taken a massive cost for this whole saga of Afghanistan, economically wise, human loss wise, losing good will among the Afghan people & now the same people who it supported haunting them in a very bad way.

On a personal note as for Durand Line, the people of NWFP in 1947 had decided to join Pakistan, which should have been enough for Afghanistan to withdraw its claim as if the people did not wanted to join Afghanistan there is no use to pursue such claim as in the decades after creation of Pakistan except by some very few people no one was interested in joining Afghanistan on this side, even before Afghanistan went into a turmoil.

And the problem of Afghanistan is not foreign interference, rather its the centuries old tribal system. We Pushtons have a tribal system which is very complicated & creates fiasco & war if not properly managed. Rather in every tribal society this is a problem, the problem of getting united.

The day different tribes of Afghanistan get united for a common cause, the welfare of its people, it will become a new nation, till then they will regrettably don't move ahead.

 

[muse]

How would you feel?

Bachay, been in and out Afghanistan for more years than I should have been - and remember had it not been for Pakistan "meddling" in Afghanistan, there would be no Afghanistan. Get your head straight, you will not get too many more breaks on this issue.

Afghans want someone to to be angry at, be angry at that villain Daud khan, Daud destroyed the monarchy that bound Afghanistan, and for what? A typical Sardar - and you know all too well that if you were not trying to defend Daud to a Pakistan, you would be cursing at him for just what I said Daud really was.

It's curious, Afghans are not angry at US for US meddling, after all Pakistani and US meddling kind went together - how come?? Because Afghan know that would be useless -- but please do vent at Pakistan, we want you light as air.

You do not realize what the claims are that Pakistan will make for the cost for the sacrifice it has borne -- but you will and so will the rest of the world, US or no US.

 

[Watani]

^ You can go in and out of Afghanistan as much you want to but that doesn't mean you will know about everything going on there. And if Pakistan wouldn't have meddled then there would have been no Afghanistan today? Really? So throughout it's six thousand years of history and during all our wars, Pakistan was there for us? Then please also tell me who maintained the length of our six thousands years of history? And Daud Khan was bad for Afghanistan because he wanted NWFP back? Oh please! My family left Afghanistan for the West after Daud Khan got killed because after Daud Khan Afghanistan got shattered, and who was also responsible for his death? Yup, that's right, you know it. None in the past thirty years could handle Afghanistan as Daud Khan and please don't tell me you know better what's best for Afghanistan, because only people you will praise will be those in favour of Pakistan, not Afghanistan. And as if Daud Khan's death wasn't enough for Pakistani government, they even destroyed the regime of Mohammad Najibullah and this was your government's second huge mistake! After Daud Khan Afghans started to rely on Najibullah but your government even cleared him from the picture. Why weren't we Afghans mad at anyone before Pakistan's independence? Why didn't any other neighbouring country besides Pakistani government found it necessary to interfere with us politically? We even separated from Iran, from Tajikistan and even Uzbekistan and even though there were tensions in the beginning, later on it worked perfectly fine for all of us. Because nor did they interfere with us and nor did we interfere with them, nor were we angry at them and nor were they angry at us. And before telling me to get my head straight, please do notice that if it wasn't straight then I wouldn't even have started about it.

@Taimi
Daud Khan was the one who could get NWFP through talks, he didn't send any Taliban or Mujahideen to Pakistan in order to make the country a Afghanistan-friendly one and like that 'reclaim' NWFP. Russia couldn't even have made a single wrong move in Afghanistan if he was there, and let me tell you that Russia hadn't come to Afghanistan to start off a war. They came to protect their powers from countries like USA and when they newly entered, situation was very calm in Afghanistan. It was Hafizullah Amin who made ridiculous moves towards Russians in Afghanistan, which eventually led to a bloody war. And guess what? Even Hafizullah Amin was supported by Pakistan. And Pakistan had a strong army and was stable so why would Pakistan use another country for it's own protection anyway? Doesn't Pakistan claim they can handle anyone with no help? And it's weird despite of being an Pashtun that you don't mention that out of 30 million Pashtuns not even 500.000 thousand were allowed to vote. Out of all those voters 52% voted for Pakistan over India while other millions wanted Pashtunistan or Afghanistan, not India and nor Pakistan. And the land was of Afghanistan and Afghanistan shouldn't even have been an option, and if Pakistani government indeed cared for people's opinion then Baluchistan would have gotten a referendum way long ago. And tribal differences exists everywhere, even in Pakistan, even in India and even in West minorities have got their issue with the country they live in. But in Afghanistan those tribal matters haven't led to murder, rape and looting and that's exactly what started to happen after Russian invasion. Before that even despite of our political differences, Afghan ethnics got along perfectly fine and none was generalizing at all. It all happened since last thirty years. And even if Afghanistan was pro-India, why the hell would Pakistani government even bother? Even Tajikistan, Iran and Uzbekistan are India-friendly, so? Do we ever interfere with countries where Pakistan is friends with? Like Saudi who is supporting Taliban financially since the beginning?

And this is not about Afghans bringing Russians down, or Pakistani's down or whoever down. This about the things which have taken place in Afghanistan since last few decades and I am explaining here the anger towards your government, not your people. No Afghan wants Pakistan destabilized because the more our neighbouring countries suffer, the more we ourselves will suffer.

 

[Omar1984]

@Watani:

Weren't Taliban considered as heros in the 1980's in Afghanistan when they defeated the Soviets?

Which government before Taliban was stable in Afghanistan?

What do you think is the solution for all of Afghanistan's problems? (and dont say give the western provinces of Pakistan to Afghanistan because thats a huge chuck of land much more larger than the eastern provinces combined and no one in Pakistan would be crazy to hand that large of a territory to Afghanistan or any other country).

 

[kidwaibhai]

i dont understand afghan governments were not able to handle the land that was actually under their control. how could they have handled baluchistan and NWFP combined.

 

[muse]

Watani

Your family left for the West after Daud was killed? In other words you went through Pakistan? And that means you have no experience of those times -- if this is so then I understand you.


Please do more research, older Afghans stuck in a war they lost more than 30 years do not have the right to keep young minds like your in a prison of past failure.

And yes, you may not like to hear it, if it was not for Pakistani meddling , there would be no free Afghanistan now, just remember American came to help two years after Afghan istan was invaded and during that time, Pakistan alone, was the lifeline of the Afghan - ingrate.

 

[Watani]

^ I and my family did leave, but I still got relatives there and in touch with people who never left the country, plus since last few years many of my uncles and cousins returned as well. And are you trying to say you been there since past three decades then? If not then why you telling me I got no experience and very less knowledge? And defend your government all you want but I made my points and the facts clear surrounding our political conflicts, now whether you agree on it or give me your version of the story is all up to you. Pakistani government supported murderers of Najibullah and Daud Khan and both of them were loved by many Afghans, especially Pashtuns. It's just a shame Pakistani people have to suffer because of their government's mistakes.

@Kidwai
Afghanistan has handled quiet some countries in the past, let alone some provinces. The reason our government had to hand over NWFP to British Empire was because they were facing problems from many countries at one time which became difficult for them to handle. Our force was very small and Britain kept trying to dominate us over and over again but kept failing. At the end of the day, Afghan Emir and British Empire had no choice but to make a deal in order to keep Russian threats away, and one of the steps they had to take was giving NWFP to Britain temporarily, which by now is permanently not Afghanistan's any more. That was also because NWFP was a very easy route to enter British India and (as I said) our force was in very small numbers and we couldn't defend the entire NWFP, as we also had to make sure other parts of Afghanistan aren't invaded.

@Omar
There is a difference between Taliban and Mujahideen and even within Mujahideen there were/are different groups. Only Mujahideen who was capable of doing at least something, Mohammad Najibullah, got killed by Taliban and so we were left with Ahmad Shah Massoud and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Najibullah was our hope and before him our hope was Daud Khan. And no, giving away NWFP isn't solution to Afghanistan's problem. The solution is negotiation between Northern Alliance and Taliban, but West is in their way and I doubt West will let these two groups solve their problems with each other. Right now Northern Alliance should corporate with Pashtuns and Taliban should understand other ethnics of Afghanistan and that only will be a huge achievement for Afghanistan. But the reason Northern Alliance might not accept Taliban is that it's fairly possible Pakistani Taliban also will move to Afghanistan after USA's departure and Pakistani and Saudi government again might interfere with us politically and again that might occur ethical conflict. That's why I keep saying it's also in favour of our neighbouring countries to not interfere with us politically, but whom to tell mere dost.

 

[Omar1984]

^ Tehrik-i-Taliban is an enemy of Pakistan and its a totally different group from the original Afghan Taliban. No way on earth would Pakistan want Tehrik-i-Taliban to be any kind of power in any neighboring country. Tehrik-i-Taliban are uncircumcised kuffar who kill Muslims even when Muslims break their fast during Iftar.
Check these threads:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...s/27023-evidence-indian-involvement-swat.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-border-kills-during-iftar-breaking-fast.html

 

[Watani]

^ It's the Northern Alliance who doesn't trust Pakistan, not Taliban. Pashtuns of Afghanistan want good relationship with Pakistan because they realize at the end of the day it's them and Pashtuns on other side of the border who will suffer from all this. But when Taliban newly entered Afghanistan, they were like animals who created a lot of ethical hatred amongst Afghans, and Tajiks, Uzbek's and Hazara's especially now are afraid Pakistani Taliban will again come to Afghanistan and continue with what they did when they first came. As some here said already, there is difference between Taliban of then and Afghan Taliban of now, as now Afghan Taliban contain Afghans only.

Negotiation between the 'new' Afghan Taliban and Northern Alliance would really help, but Afghan Taliban also has to make sure they cut all ties with Pakistani Taliban and let Pakistani army handle those in Pakistan. Ab hum sirf aur sirf Uparwale se duwa maang sakte hain, aur kuch nahin kar sakte.