Moment Of Truth :---

[denel]

There is no evidence to suggest that the variants of hawker hunter or folland gnat operated by India were inferior to north american f86 sabre.

You merely parroted what Indian members used to say.


What happened to him and Mysore?


I have seen people giving examples especially of Ghaznavi and Somnath.

Operation Somnath comes to mind. Bombing of Dawarka.

Now if we were in a last ditch situation, wanting the nuclear missiles to fly and awaiting mutual destruction, then example of Tipu would be OK. But not now.

I dont parrot read Indians - please come up with correct verbiage.

 

[MastanKhan]

NO it is not.
It is to be investigated as short comings in education, training, departmental support, geo-political calculus
before making a wild assertion like you are doing so right now.

For a force, that has always been short of cash, and inducts officers from the worst education system possible, and a society with perpetual problems.

PAF does a fine job in raising the officer standard as it is doing.

Now those are concepts, car sales doesn't teach.

I need you to respect that.

Hi,

I don't have a problem with officers---I have problem with those in command--.

The luxury cars and life style of the upper rank officers does not reflect on shortage of funds.

The 90's mirage deal did not have shortage of funds---the issue was the bribe---which would have accounted for 5 or 6 less aircraft---so instead of 40---they could have had 35 or 34 aircraft---.

Going back for the F16's was intentional---all friends told the Paf not to do so---sanctions would be coming---yet Paf lied to the pakistani public about it and kept on blaming the american---thus creating a hate for the americans---.

See---that is what the Paf needed---an american mindset Car salesman for the deal---.

Soldiers should never do deals---their principal stand---their character development---their stance of situational awareness in a deal is totally different---they are programmed to act in a totally different manner---and yet they go on a buying expedition---.

It would be just like asking me to go on an intercept mission---. I wouldn't even know how to get in & sit in the aircraft seat properly---.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with officers---I have problem with those in command--.

The luxury cars and life style of the upper rank officers does not reflect on shortage of funds.

The 90's mirage deal did not have shortage of funds---the issue was the bribe---which would have accounted for 5 or 6 less aircraft---so instead of 40---they could have had 35 or 34 aircraft---.

Going back for the F16's was intentional---all friends told the Paf not to do so---sanctions would be coming---yet Paf lied to the pakistani public about it and kept on blaming the american---thus creating a hate for the americans---.

See---that is what the Paf needed---an american mindset Car salesman for the deal---.

Soldiers should never do deals---their principal stand---their character development---their stance of situational awareness in a deal is totally different---they are programmed to act in a totally different manner---and yet they go on a buying expedition---.

It would be just like asking me to go on an intercept mission---. I wouldn't even know how to get in & sit in the aircraft seat properly---.

So now you are shifting goals posts.

See the highlighted part.
Now tell me, which part of the government doesn't do the same ?

and how does that equate to PAF officers sabotaging.

Make an effort to answer now.

 

[MastanKhan]

So now you are shifting goals posts.

See the highlighted part.
Now tell me, which part of the government doesn't do the same ?

and how does that equate to PAF officers sabotaging.

Make an effort to answer now.

Hi,

I like your style---.

Round & round & round we go

Where we end up no one knows

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

I like your style---.

Round & round & round we go

Where we end up no one knows

I admire your internet skills...

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Without agreeing or dis-agreeing @MastanKhan point of view ,,, I will take posters and readers to one old news In which it was disclose that PAF need 200+ (replacement) before 2020 ….. So, Even if we add 100+ JF-17 , PAF still short of 100 birds ……
People also have to understand JF-17 is Advance Light Category bird (unless PAF change air frame) and it meant to replace older A-5s , F-6s and F-7s with advance tech and cost effectively ,, And JF-17 doing great job … Actulllay more then great..
People also have to understand PAF have to replace Old Mirages ….. Now PAF can do few things (options),

1. PAF can build Delta Wing Block of JF-17 , This will take time .
2. PAF can buy J-10 , Medium Delta wing bird , here people need to keep one main fact in mind that is , J-10 is China's F-16 , Chinees will going to spend billion of $$ on J-10 program for many years to come .. Pakistan surly can take many benefits from this.
3. PAF can buy Twine engine heavy (likes of Su-35 , J-16 , EFT etc) this will going to cost hell lot of money but can be done in 5 to 10 years time.. And more numbers can be with passage of time.

Dear readers , S-400s and Rafale will change so many things for PAF(in very near future) …. Mirages (life)end time is getting closer and closer .. I am sure PAF will take and already taking appropriate setups in right directions..

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

I like your style---.

Round & round & round we go

Where we end up no one knows

so no answers ...
Just word play.

I do not have any more energy or inclination to engage a retired car salesman in debate.

You have more time to kill, than I can afford to waste.

 

[ziaulislam]

Without agreeing or dis-agreeing @MastanKhan point of view ,,, I will take posters and readers to one old news In which it was disclose that PAF need 200+ (replacement) before 2020 ….. So, Even if we add 100+ JF-17 , PAF still short of 100 birds ……
People also have to understand JF-17 is Advance Light Category bird (unless PAF change air frame) and it meant to replace older A-5s , F-6s and F-7s with advance tech and cost effectively ,, And JF-17 doing great job … Actulllay more then great..
People also have to understand PAF have to replace Old Mirages ….. Now PAF can do few things (options),

1. PAF can build Delta Wing Block of JF-17 , This will take time .
2. PAF can buy J-10 , Medium Delta wing bird , here people need to keep one main fact in mind that is , J-10 is China's F-16 , Chinees will going to spend billion of $$ on J-10 program for many years to come .. Pakistan surly can take many benefits from this.
3. PAF can buy Twine engine heavy (likes of Su-35 , J-16 , EFT etc) this will going to cost hell lot of money but can be done in 5 to 10 years time.. And more numbers can be with passage of time.

Dear readers , S-400s and Rafale will change so many things for PAF(in very near future) …. Mirages (life)end time is getting closer and closer .. I am sure PAF will take and already taking appropriate setups in right directions..

true but financial by mapping next 10 years the only two options we have are used f16s or Chinese alternative or perhaps if euro fighter typhoon consortium is eager enough to replicate the mirage5 deal/used deal(which i highly doubt)

even if we have oil discovered today (largest one ever) we still will not be financially strong enough to buy anything in next 10 years..

pakistan has too much poverty and needs alot of invetsment in health education and its ailing agricuutre sector

 

[MastanKhan]

so no answers ...
Just word play.

I do not have any more energy or inclination to engage a retired car salesman in debate.

You have more time to kill, than I can afford to waste.

Hi,

I have already answered multiple times---. I can't make you understand---.

 

[guest9999]

The Paf is woefully short of frontline fighter aircraft by a number of 100-150 aircraft---. The reason being that the Paf did not believe that there would be a war with india---.

Paf intentionally kept the numbers down over the last 3 1/2 decades for the reason that with a full inventory---pak army would have waged a war and the Paf---self serving organization that it is---does not want to fight a war---.

Every opportunity that the Paf had of getting the aircraft was short listed and an excuse found not to get the aircraft in a timely manner---. Every opportunity was availed to stretch the purchase option till the line stretched so thin that it broke---.

Never ever was there any URGENCY shown on the behalf of the Paf to get the aircraft on urgent basis---.

Sir, I have consistently pointed out that some, not all, of the naval acquisitions have been very foolish. While IN is arming itself to the teeth, PN just realized it needs to stop pirates and drug smugglers? Please read the following...​

India is building/acquiring/has already done the following:

• 4-7 Arihant class SSBN
• 6 S5 class SSN
• 1 Akula class SSN on lease
• 6 Kalvari class subs
• 6 Project 75I class subs
• 2 Aircraft carriers (1 under construction + 1 planned)
• 1 Aircraft carrier already in service
• 4 Destroyers
• 7 Project 17A Frigates
• 10 Talwar class Frigates
• ~32 ASW Corvettes planned/under construction
• +100 fighter aircraft planned for carriers
• 12 P-8 aircraft

Meanwhile, Pakistan is procuring/procured the following:

• 2 Damen OPV (Offshore Patrol Vessel)
• 2 Swiftships (Corvettes, from the US)
• 4 F-22P

I will separate the more useful ships from the useless ones above:

• 4 MILGEM
• 4 Type 054A/P
• 8 Yuan class subs

So while the enemy is arming itself to the teeth with ships that pack a lot of firepower to choke Pakistan via blockade, Pakistan is "combating challenges like maritime terrorism, drug and human trafficking, Somali piracy and providing humanitarian assistance where and when required".

???

Ships like OPV, Swift, F-22P are floating pieces of scrap metal for barrage of BrahMos and the rest of IN firepower. I see no justification in wasting precious money in acquiring these ships. At a time when the enemy is building aircraft carriers, SSBN, destroyers, frigates, many corvettes, and investing heavily in sub-hunting fleet like P-8, PN has the bright idea to become an anti-drug & anti-piracy force?


I don't think so. Higher ups running military are not above error. History shows otherwise.

I think people need to start asking questions. otherwise, Pakistan will keep repeating costly mistakes like East Pakistan, Kargil, OBL Raid, etc.

 

[asif kamal]

I agree to some extent as certain events let me agree with this statement.
In 1994 Nawaz sharif visited and 44 Mirage 2000 S model ( maybe with some alterations for pakistan [emoji1191]) was agreed. But final contract was not signed.
In 1996 (if my memories are working properly) on 23rd march , it was a big news [emoji438] on The News, "Mitage 2000-5 is a super duper fantastic aircraft" stated by then air chief marshal abbas khattak. And memorandum of understanding signed with France [emoji632] for 32 plus 16 in future Mirage 2000.Then due to non availability of funds, and stories of 600 million dollars kick backs whole deal was cancelled.
Question [emoji782] is this at that time we were under sanctions from america [emoji631] and even could, t get Grippens from Sweden [emoji1236] due to American engine and past history if last time refusal for viggens. CHINA [emoji630] had no comparable aircraft at all and Russia [emoji635] was reluctant to sale fighters to us as cold [emoji300] war had just ended. Uk had no multirole aircraft that time. So even if there was corruption in that deal, PAF must have to insist on the deal to go on. And 3 years after that in 1999 we had only 13 F16 operational……
Then in early 2000, s initially we wanted 75 new F16 , as it was our requirement. I read in early 1990, s that there was a plan to get total 150 F16 till 2010. So then Musharraf planned to get 55 new f16, then changed to 36 new and 28 embargoed f16. At the end we saw only 18 new and 14 embargoed. This was the first official deal after 1989 deal of 60 F16 which failed. So after 16 years we were offered real advance multirole aircraft's and we ourself destroyed it… why airchief agreed to him ??
We had an option for additional 18 Block52 .Initial batch started arriving in 2011 so we could eassily demanded further 18 aircraft's in 2011-12 within US Funds. what we were purchasing when already we had refused chinease F10? So we ourself kissed that opportunity. Why?
We ordered 10 F16 of that deal 2 years back when eealtions with america [emoji631] were not at their best at all ( they already rwfused our demanded 5 second hand frigates) .
So from 2011 to 2019 we have, t purchased any advance multirole aircraft despite having a window for atleast 18 F16 .

 

[MIG21DOWN]

First of all we need to find a counter for the Rafale. Numbers game we can make up with pumping out Thunders rapidly, but we need something that can down the Rafale. Thunder may not be able to do that.

But F16 block 70 can do the job. Dare i say it will give us an advantage over the Rafale since we have decades of experience with the platform while they have none? I pray too Allah the rumors of block 70 are true.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I agree to some extent as certain events let me agree with this statement.
In 1994 Nawaz sharif visited and 44 Mirage 2000 S model ( maybe with some alterations for pakistan [emoji1191]) was agreed. But final contract was not signed.
In 1996 (if my memories are working properly) on 23rd march , it was a big news [emoji438] on The News, "Mitage 2000-5 is a super duper fantastic aircraft" stated by then air chief marshal abbas khattak. And memorandum of understanding signed with France [emoji632] for 32 plus 16 in future Mirage 2000.Then due to non availability of funds, and stories of 600 million dollars kick backs whole deal was cancelled.
Question [emoji782] is this at that time we were under sanctions from america [emoji631] and even could, t get Grippens from Sweden [emoji1236] due to American engine and past history if last time refusal for viggens. CHINA [emoji630] had no comparable aircraft at all and Russia [emoji635] was reluctant to sale fighters to us as cold [emoji300] war had just ended. Uk had no multirole aircraft that time. So even if there was corruption in that deal, PAF must have to insist on the deal to go on. And 3 years after that in 1999 we had only 13 F16 operational……
Then in early 2000, s initially we wanted 75 new F16 , as it was our requirement. I read in early 1990, s that there was a plan to get total 150 F16 till 2010. So then Musharraf planned to get 55 new f16, then changed to 36 new and 28 embargoed f16. At the end we saw only 18 new and 14 embargoed. This was the first official deal after 1989 deal of 60 F16 which failed. So after 16 years we were offered real advance multirole aircraft's and we ourself destroyed it… why airchief agreed to him ??
We had an option for additional 18 Block52 .Initial batch started arriving in 2011 so we could eassily demanded further 18 aircraft's in 2011-12 within US Funds. what we were purchasing when already we had refused chinease F10? So we ourself kissed that opportunity. Why?
We ordered 10 F16 of that deal 2 years back when eealtions with america [emoji631] were not at their best at all ( they already rwfused our demanded 5 second hand frigates) .
So from 2011 to 2019 we have, t purchased any advance multirole aircraft despite having a window for atleast 18 F16 .

We got most of the spares that we had paid for and other equipment starting in 1994 after the Brown Amendment was passed. The 1998 tests had a minimal impact on both India and Pakistan as the sanctions were short-lived anyways. So I can only take your 13 operational F-16s as a claim, unless you have some specific proof to present in that regard.

PS, in case people forget, France actually blocked the delivery of the Agosta sub around that time as well. They had also sanctioned us! There were also delays in the batch of used Mirages we were buying that were being upgraded to ROSE in France. If we had Mirage 2000s in service then, they would have similar availability as the F-16 fleet, if not worse.

 

[asif kamal]

Recently pakistan [emoji1191] ordered 8 or 10 F16 and Congress demanded that we have to pay them via our own pocket, not from funds given to us by American govt. Our plan was to get total 18 new block 52 in 2 batches. We cancelled the order. I do, t understand why? Atleast they were agreed to sale us .As rafale and Eurofighter are very costly and out of our range. And they would have boosted our present [emoji320] fleet. We could pay those 700 million dollars eassily as F16 takes 3 years to build. So it would have costed 250 million dollars per year. Why we cancelled that order? Can any other country offer us rafale, eurofighter, grippen, su35 free?? If no than there seems no reason to cancel our order of an aircraft we are using since 35 years

 

[fitpOsitive]

Recently pakistan [emoji1191] ordered 8 or 10 F16 and Congress demanded that we have to pay them via our own pocket, not from funds given to us by American govt. Our plan was to get total 18 new block 52 in 2 batches. We cancelled the order. I do, t understand why? Atleast they were agreed to sale us .As rafale and Eurofighter are very costly and out of our range. And they would have boosted our present [emoji320] fleet. We could pay those 700 million dollars eassily as F16 takes 3 years to build. So it would have costed 250 million dollars per year. Why we cancelled that order? Can any other country offer us rafale, eurofighter, grippen, su35 free?? If no than there seems no reason to cancel our order of an aircraft we are using since 35 years

F16, as of now, is good, if given free.
We will invest these millions in our own projects, and will end up doing better than F16, and it has been the case, by now.