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Modi Skirts India’s Top Warplane Maker to Check China

Bajaj's and HM's production line MRP was done by bureaucracy, that is news to me...


I will show you three , Mig21 made from scratch, right from stamping's, to plating to engines, to final assembly to MLG/NLG..
Cheetah, cheetal, - made from raw material ground up,
DO228- made from scratch engine to avionics....
Now you show me one product from indian private houses that is a worldclass....
MIG/ Cheeta/ Cheetal are all from 1970 technology transfer projects. Done and dusted. Aren't we seen issues with Sukhoi's assembly as this project is delayed by 2 years and serviceability issues of Sukhoi's.

Buddy problem area is accountability and turnaround time for this PSU. It needs cultural transformation.

Don't forget none of the private companies manufactured a power plant yet which BHEL manufactures since ages.
Anil Ambani led ADAG Reliance ordered power plant worth $ 8 billion from China instead of BHEL .
Didn't they would shun national interest for profit anyday.
Common give us a break, Ambani project was financed by Chinese bank. They went for bidding where chinese comes on top. It is business silly, BHEL needs to pull up socks to be competitive.

surprising that tata and al were allowed to produce trucks but not cars? wonder why?

Well, the bottom line is I don't really care anymore, Might as well shut HAL down for all I care...
Buddy issue is improve work culture
 
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good move, the state run companies unfortunately just cant compete with the efficiency private players can provide.

They can if properely managed.

Hopefully , New Goverment will pay more attention towards improving work culture in PSUs and other Govermnet Sector.
 
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TATA aero structure should be rope into the Aviation. There is no harm in Reliance Dasault JV for make in India.
 
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MIG/ Cheeta/ Cheetal are all from 1970 technology transfer projects. Done and dusted. Aren't we seen issues with Sukhoi's assembly as this project is delayed by 2 years and serviceability issues of Sukhoi's.

Service of commisioned MKI is responsibility of IAF BRD, not HAL.
And Yes HAL did these projects in the 70's and 80's, Now how about showing me the glowing example of private sector ingenuity?

And Cultural transformation is throw National Security defence projects at Private industries with zero experience, zero credentials of delivering projects of such complexity, zero oversight.....

But as I said, lets see how this ends up. i'll be here to say "I told ya so"
 
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well at least fire all the bureaucratic waste material ( the endless mess of secretaries, under secretaries who do nothing ) and make it lean and research oriented.
there are "no" secretaries or under secretaries in HAL, I haven't known a single bureaucrat in my time in HAL, you might be confusing MoD South block With HAL....
 
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Private sector by the very virtue of greater accountability will provide better performance than any PSU.This statements holds true in every sector in any country in general. The only advantage HAL has over private conglomerate is its maturity.How are private enterprises ever going to get established if we keep supporting HAL over them citing lack of maturity?Something has to give eventually.Do we expect private sector to become mature overnight? Its a process that will take time and I, for one, am glad that this process has started.

I say give private companies a chance.They will beg, borrow and steal tech from all over the world like Indian pharma companies, poach hard working people from HAL, basically they will do whatever it takes to succeed.I have full faith in power of Indian enterprise I am sure they will deliver world class products once they get their teeth in the defence pie firmly.How long are we going to coddle HAL?They had plenty of chances in the past 67 years.If they could'nt get their shit together till now they will never do so.Look at where South Korea is today, that is power of enterprise rather than you-hold-your-job-for-life culture of PSUs.
 
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Service of commisioned MKI is responsibility of IAF BRD, not HAL.
And Yes HAL did these projects in the 70's and 80's, Now how about showing me the glowing example of private sector ingenuity?

And Cultural transformation is throw National Security defence projects at Private industries with zero experience, zero credentials of delivering projects of such complexity, zero oversight.....

But as I said, lets see how this ends up. i'll be here to say "I told ya so"
While agreeing with your second part, I am game to take calculated risk and develop private sector. Glowing example is ship building for navy
 
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they will do whatever it takes to succeed

Yes, that's the basic difference. Even after so much patronage HAL remained a licensed product manufacturer, what's the point of having such "maturity" and "experience"?
 
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i agree with @MilSpec . Modi is taking all bad decisions. Parrikar is known as Congressi guy, so there is nothing new that he is pushing crappy Rafale TOT, which offers nothing.

No nation has developed anything from TOT. TOT is only screw-driver giri, it gives nothing. Sukhoi-30 gave nothing. LCA had tobe made by hardwork, from zero in laboratory.

Rafale is avoiding HAL because HAL has 4 decades of "assembling" experience. HAL knows aircrafts far better than any private player in India. HAL will be able to digest "screw-driver" lessons from Rafale into LCA/AMCA very fast. But Reliance/TATA has no experience. This is why Rafale wants these immature kids to work on JV. They fear HAL.

Best solution is - do what USA/Russia did. Fund huge domestic R&D and focus. Purchase those flying test-beds from Russia for testing Kaveri, even if they cost 1 billion$ each. But i don't see that commitment in Modi/Parrikar. Same old corrupt lobbies/decisions continue. FDI in Defence, is worst decision ever taken in history. No nation grows on foreign legs in defence sector. :tdown:

Now some morons will say - "So what about British investment in american defence sector?". Well, are USA and UK different nations? They are same family. USA is colony of migrated white european christians, created after genocide of natives between 14th and 20th century. Google "California genocide". Even Mexico lost huge lands to USA in invasion.
 
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While agreeing with your second part, I am game to take calculated risk and develop private sector. Glowing example is ship building for navy
I have no issues with private participation, if it is done just like the naval shipyards, it indeed would be a great change, ABG, Pipavav, WIS, all shipyards have had proven their credentials as shipbuilders, but tomorrow if you say Amul will be building Amur Class Submarines, then it causes concerns just like reliance building rafales, who hasn't built a aerospace rivet in it's entire life.

i agree with @MilSpec . Modi is taking all bad decisions. Parrikar is known as Congressi guy, so there is nothing new that he is pushing crappy Rafale TOT, which offers nothing.

No nation has developed anything from TOT. TOT is only screw-driver giri, it gives nothing. Sukhoi-30 gave nothing. LCA had tobe made by hardwork, from zero in laboratory.

Rafale is avoiding HAL because HAL has 4 decades of "assembling" experience. HAL knows aircrafts far better than any private player in India. HAL will be able to digest "screw-driver" lessons from Rafale into LCA/AMCA very fast. But Reliance/TATA has no experience. This is why Rafale wants these immature kids to work on JV. They fear HAL.

Best solution is - do what USA/Russia did. Fund huge domestic R&D and focus. Purchase those flying test-beds from Russia for testing Kaveri, even if they cost 1 billion$ each. But i don't see that commitment in Modi/Parrikar. Same old corrupt lobbies/decisions continue. FDI in Defence, is worst decision ever taken in history. No nation grows on foreign legs in defence sector. :tdown:

Now some morons will say - "So what about British investment in american defence sector?". Well, are USA and UK different nations? They are same family. USA is colony of migrated white european christians, created after genocide of natives between 14th and 20th century. Google "California genocide". Even Mexico lost huge lands to USA in invasion.

Hi,

Lets not have scope creep in the discussion, I have never said that you don't learn from ToT, you do. MKI has given Indian establishment very important lessons in newer technology, Mig21 airframes had series of fit gauges for all it's airframe components, I knew of mechanics who were even called in as consultants after retirement for hammering the right profile as they knew it like back of thier hands, that gave wat to CMM and LMM validations on the MKI, similarly MKI line brought asia's second largest CNC complex in Asia to HAL Nashik.

Scope of the MKI project was to build 200 MKI's, that is what project was for, all three phases of the project dealt with the same. I have been part of multiple ToT projects both in India and in Global MNC's, and in most cases ToT projects will leave some bad taste in PPD engineering team, but it is a cost saving measure, especially if it is a intra-organisational ToT. Were lessons learnt in MKI production used in LCA tejas - NO because, it was not designed by HAL.

What would have been different if HAL- ARDC had developed the Tejas, most likely lessons from Jaguar and MKI would have ben implemented in the design and the production of the aircraft. That is my hunch, that is how every designer works... they go back to the basics, and HAL's basics lie within it its manufacturing experience of the Mg21,23'27's Jags, Ajt's and MKI's
 
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I have no issues with private participation, if it is done just like the naval shipyards, it indeed would be a great change, ABG, Pipavav, WIS, all shipyards have had proven their credentials as shipbuilders, but tomorrow if you say Amul will be building Amur Class Submarines, then it causes concerns just like reliance building rafales, who hasn't built a aerospace rivet in it's entire life.



Hi,

Lets not have scope creep in the discussion, I have never said that you don't learn from ToT, you do. MKI has given Indian establishment very important lessons in newer technology, Mig21 airframes had series of fit gauges for all it's airframe components, I knew of mechanics who were even called in as consultants after retirement for hammering the right profile as they knew it like back of thier hands, that gave wat to CMM and LMM validations on the MKI, similarly MKI line brought asia's second largest CNC complex in Asia to HAL Nashik.

Scope of the MKI project was to build 200 MKI's, that is what project was for, all three phases of the project dealt with the same. I have been part of multiple ToT projects both in India and in Global MNC's, and in most cases ToT projects will leave some bad taste in PPD engineering team, but it is a cost saving measure, especially if it is a intra-organisational ToT. Were lessons learnt in MKI production used in LCA tejas - NO because, it was not designed by HAL.

What would have been different if HAL- ARDC had developed the Tejas, most likely lessons from Jaguar and MKI would have ben implemented in the design and the production of the aircraft. That is my hunch, that is how every designer works... they go back to the basics, and HAL's basics lie within it its manufacturing experience of the Mg21,23'27's Jags, Ajt's and MKI's
If some company is putting money and taking risk, let them give a chance.
TATA is not known for aircraft making, still they are taking risk with Airbus.
Baba Kalyani is know for metals not guns, they are going into Howitzers
L&T had never built any ship, then they built Arihant.

To built Aerospace ecosystem, we need someone with deep pocket to invest and take risk. These conglomerates are doing it with help of foreign partners. I suggestion is to support them
 
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