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Modi govt must act fast to save India’s depleting submarine fleet

Indo-guy

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Modi govt must act fast to save India’s depleting submarine fleet - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: The Narendra Modi government will have to get cracking on a four-pronged strategy if it wants to rescue the country's underwater combat arm from sinking any further.
Defence ministry sources say the new political dispensation should ensure there are no further slippages in the ongoing project to build six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, the long-delayed global tender for six new-generation submarines is issued, life extension for at least five ageing submarines is fast-tracked, and the long-term plan for nuclear submarines gets the requisite support.
The finance ministry is often blamed for being a "big obstacle" for military modernisation plans. But with Arun Jaitley straddling both MoF and MoD as of now, there is "hope" the "detailed action plan" for the submarine fleet will be swiftly cleared. Jaitley, on being asked by TOI if there was "a conflict of interest" in handling both the ministries, replied, "Well, I see it as supplementing of interest."
It is certainly required. Navy is down to just nine operational diesel-electric submarines, with another four stuck in long repairs and refits. All the 13 submarines are over 20 years old, while eight of them have crossed 25. India, in fact, is fast losing its underwater combat superiority over Pakistan, which has eight submarines, and falling further behind China with over 50.
For starters, there is the long-pending "Project-75India" to acquire six stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion (AIP) for greater underwater endurance. Though this over Rs 50,000 crore project was granted "acceptance of necessity'' in November 2007, the global tender to select the foreign collaborator is yet to be even floated with the file being tossed between the two ministries.
"Since early-April, it's now again with MoF. The tender or RFP (request for proposal) can be issued only after first the MoF and then the cabinet committee on security approves it," said a source.
The urgency is required since it will take at least three years to select the foreign collaborator, and another seven to eight years after that for the first submarine to roll out. The first two submarines will be directly imported to save time, while three will be constructed at MDL in Mumbai, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam.
Then, there is the ongoing Rs 23,562 crore Scorpene project at MDL, already running over four years behind schedule. The first Scorpene is now slated for delivery by November 2016, with the other five rolling out thereafter every 8-10 months. The Rs 1,800 crore contract to buy 98 heavy-weight torpedoes to arm the submarines is also yet to be inked.
On the nuclear front, Navy wants three SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles) and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines but without ballistic missiles) in the long term.
The force currently operates only one nuclear-powered submarine, INS Chakra, acquired on a 10-year lease from Russia for almost $1 billion in 2012, but it's not equipped with long-range missiles due to international treaties.
India's first indigenously produced nuclear submarine, INS Arihant, is yet to head for extensive sea trials after its reactor went "critical" last August. Two follow-on SSBNs, one already named INS Aridhaman, are being constructed under this advanced technology vessel project.
 
We should buy some Scorpenes off the shelf as a stop gap measure

I do agree, but MOD knows better.

On the nuclear front, Navy wants three SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles) and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines but without ballistic missiles) in the long term

The successor subs to Arihnat class will have displacement of 10,500 tons to 12,800 tons, in my opinion.

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We should buy some Scorpenes off the shelf as a stop gap measure

Parts of them ok, but not complete subs, since that wouldn't make sense now, that we are on the verge to master the Scorpene production in India. It is very likely that we will produce and induct 6 new Scorpenes faster that we do with the first 6. One of the most crucial points however is, what AIP they get! I belive that much of the delays and decision in the SSK procurement is based on DRDO wanting to provide that system. IF BJP wants to show action, check if the DRDO system is actually good and mature enough, if not de-link it and simply take the available French system!
 
Parts of them ok, but not complete subs, since that wouldn't make sense now, that we are on the verge to master the Scorpene production in India. It is very likely that we will produce and induct 6 new Scorpenes faster that we do with the first 6. One of the most crucial points however is, what AIP they get! I belive that much of the delays and decision in the SSK procurement is based on DRDO wanting to provide that system. IF BJP wants to show action, check if the DRDO system is actually good and mature enough, if not de-link it and simply take the available French system!

agree but non of this is going to solve our problems in immediate as well as near future ...a decade later may be ..but not for next few years ...

Operational readiness of our 2 decade year old submarines is also questionable.

That means if we do not buy Scorpenes off the shelf for considerable time we will be short of adequate number of submarines ...

and frankly speaking the gap between IN and PLAN is only going to widen progressively ...we are never going to catch up ...

Now we are not talking about matching PLAN boat by boat ....but we are not going to have even reasonable numbers against PLAN ....

Given our area of interest being IOR ....we are always going to be short of submarines .

Buying few scorpene submarines off the shelf will give us some breathing space ... to catch up in terms of numbers ...
 
agree but non of this is going to solve our problems in immediate as well as near future ...a decade later may be ..but not for next few years ...

Of course not, because the current problem is not based on procurement delays as the media or the BJP sell it, but on accidents that happend in the IN, besides the fact that the Kilo fleet is undergoing modernisations, which gets some of them out of service for a certain time as well. So we have to face a short term reduction in any case, but can counter it to some extend by speeding up the induction of more Scorpene subs.

and frankly speaking the gap between IN and PLAN is only going to widen progressively ...we are never going to catch up ...

We don't have to catch up with PLAN, we have to be able to counter them in our areas of interest and that is done by adding Subs on the one side, but mainly by adding MPAs and Frigats (and imo also dedicated ASW carriers, but that's another issue).

Buying few scorpene submarines off the shelf will give us some breathing space ... to catch up in terms of numbers ...

Of course, but won't be a game changer and as mentioned will be counterproductive for our own production line. I would rather prefer leasing another Akula or even better some Yasen class SSNs, which actually would make an operational difference and not only a faster induction of sub in numbers.

We should had ordered Scorpenes from France in the initial P75 order, but we took a sub under licence production although we didn't had the base know how anymore, which makes delays obvious and instead of reducing the risk by ordering some of them from the vendor, simultaneous to the licence production in India, we took the high risk route and made everything dependent on a sucessful licence production. Highly stupid project management!
 
frankly saying,I don't know why India doesn't trying its hand in the field of SSK.we're building SSBN,but could not build SSK(probably only country).we should get a partner(I'd personally prefer Japan.their subs are quieter,though probably not comparable with top of the line Scorpene or Type-214.but it'd be more than a decent start for us) and make our own SSK.and we should do it fast.parellelly,we should continue Project-75I.within 10-15 years,we'd get all the new subs required in our force without breaking a sweat.but then again,its MOD who will know best or probably working on these.half a dozen SSN would be great.but thats a distant dream.but in my opinion,to dominate IOR and adjoining seas,we should get some 16-20 SSK,6 SSN and 6 SSBN.

in these,

some 10 will be Scorpene or comparable SSK.

some 6-10 homegrown SSK(I'd prefer any JV between Indo-Japan and a design based on Soryu class)

6 Arihant and follow on larger SSBN

6 homegrown SSN.

if we'd not start working on similar products now and delay procurement,we'd loose our strength as no of retiring subs will be greater than procured one.
 
Submarines are good field to test new private industries entrance into defense establishment. Why not give a 3 year time line and open tenders to a private firm to come up with sub's ?? just like its done in US. I mean we are in deep shit already, if they manage it things can improve vastly
 
frankly saying,I don't know why India doesn't trying its hand in the field of SSK. we should get a partner

Exactly what I am saying for a long time now and the German U216 sub, that is offered to export customers would be the perfect choice! More advanced than the U209 that we have right now and than the U214 that is on offer in P75I. We could jointly develop an AIP, with their experience and design the sub around it, rather than re-designing the layout of the Scorpene to fit the DRDO system instead of the French one. Not to mention that it also will have VLS for cruise missiles like Brahmos M or Nirbhay. Order 12 x subs right away and split the production and you get a highly advanced and customized sub, that mainly would be produced in India.
 

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