MMRCA project: Govt firm on HAL as lead integrator

[MilSpec]

This is reliance's sabotage. Ambanis are trying to pip HAL to get it's footing in the aeronautical business.....

 

[jha]

Yaraa just a by-the-way question : How much does a 'full TOT' allow the manufacturers to accomplish ? Which is to say how deep of an insight does it provide ? How much would they be in possession of the relevant 'skill-set' to design a product of their own which maybe comparable or approaching-in-performance to the one they were able to obtain the 'full' TOT for ?

For example could Pakistan design her own diesel electric submarine after the Agosta 90B TOT ? Could India upgrade the Tejas with technologies inspired or devolved from the Rafaels...perhaps even come up with a Multi-Role Platform that borrows from the Rafaels, the MKIs & the Tejas ?

How far does a 'full' TOT equip one to go further ?

Full ToT is one of the most abused term used in defence forums. Full ToT means you can manufacture that particular system in your own country from scratch under the supervision of OEM. You will have to pay a fee for doing this. This does not allow you to develop the product further or, refine it on your own.

For example: India has been manufacturing engines and radar for russian planes for long now. Still when recently we tried to tweak radar of Su-30MKI , we were unable to get it working and in the end had to approach OEM . Same is the case with Engines.We have been producing engines for Su-30 but cant get our Kaveri to work completely. China has been manufacturing Russian engines for decades now but still cant get their own engine working and has to depend on Russia for this.

I am therefore not sure of this ToT hoopla and know that we wont gain anything substantial from this Rafale deal. BTW the Kaveri-Snecma deal has gone for a toss. This just shows the kind of confidence GTRE has on the ToT coming from this deal. Same will be the fate of ToT on Radar.

 

[MehrotraPrince]

Difference of opinion here.

IAF needed Rafale not to fight a capable opponent but a fighter aircraft capable of going on multi-role missions. Su-30 with upgrades can easily fit the bill. There is no need to buy an aircraft which will eventually cost more than $150 Mill. per plane to procure and will cost even more to upgrade.

On the other hand there is no option other than Akula. Not to forget the immense help the whole package has provided for development of Arihanth class SSBN.. Without Akula submarine, it would have been impossible to train crews of IN to operate a nuclear sub.

Please avoid using simple mathematics for calculating cost of fighter aircraft, at least where some amount of TOT is also involved, the cost i.e. $ 150 which you have calculated also include weapons cost. Cost of upgraded Su-30MKI alone with weapons are close to $ 90 million. MMRCA project involve many technology transfer including AESA radar, IRST, DAS, RWR, MAWS and many more other things, depending upon final negotiation (no Kaveri and Snecma project is not related to MMRCA) which is not the case with Su-30MKI package.

As far as Akula is concerned, i would say 0 industrial benefit, because we have leased it to gain some operational experience.

 

[arp2041]

Difference of opinion here.

IAF needed Rafale not to fight a capable opponent but a fighter aircraft capable of going on multi-role missions. Su-30 with upgrades can easily fit the bill. There is no need to buy an aircraft which will eventually cost more than $150 Mill. per plane to procure and will cost even more to upgrade.

On the other hand there is no option other than Akula. Not to forget the immense help the whole package has provided for development of Arihanth class SSBN.. Without Akula submarine, it would have been impossible to train crews of IN to operate a nuclear sub.

Difference of opinion here.

Rafale was never brought keeping Pakistan in mind, su-30s are more than capable to defend the western front but it was brought to make-up for shortage in nos. of ac in IAF & to make a strong defence against an eastern neighbor who will field not 1, not 2 but 3 stealth jets in the near future. Su-30 with upgrades or super sukhois are no doubt a very capable ac but what about say 2 decades from now where 4+ gen ac like su-30s will be an old ac (like mig-21 now) & all modern AFs will be operating either 4.5+ gen or 5th gen jets. IAF induct an ac not just for meeting it's present demands but also to tackle the future threats.

That's why i think the US is the sole superpower of the world, when we are still doubting if we need a 4.5 gen ac or not, it is working on producing 6th gen ac.

 

[jha]

Please avoid using simple mathematics for calculating cost of fighter aircraft, at least where some amount of TOT is also involved, the cost i.e. $ 150 which you have calculated also include weapons cost. Cost of upgraded Su-30MKI alone with weapons are close to $ 90 million. MMRCA project involve many technology transfer including AESA radar, IRST, DAS, RWR, MAWS and many more other things, depending upon final negotiation (no Kaveri and Snecma project is not related to MMRCA) which is not the case with Su-30MKI package.

As far as Akula is concerned, i would say 0 industrial benefit, because we have leased it to gain some operational experience.

Thats exactly my point sir. If we need help with some tech. we could have gone for JV ala Barak Deals or, like we are seeking for Kaveri. There was no need for such a costly procurement. We could have gained much more from a JV than we ever will from "full ToT".

BTW Akula is not just for operational experience ( which itself is invaluable as no other option is available), it comes with a whole package deal which can not be explained in a public forum.

 

[shree835]

Apart from the Ajay Shukla claims, I don't see a a production problem of LCA so far, since it is not in production at all. We only have prototypes yet and they are changing things with each new one, so as long as we don't see HAL starting the MK1 we can't really judge about their capabilities.
For Rafale they already are building new facilities, but of course handling a modern fighter with modern production ways will benefit HAL for the future too, just like they will benefit from FGFA development and production.

Btw, am I the only one that has problems with very slow loading rates of the site? It's only with PDF and started a week or so.

Do you have answer to the question raised by Ajay Shukla…???... Even I can see HAL's answer is not Satisfactory at all..

 

[jha]

Difference of opinion here.

Rafale was never brought keeping Pakistan in mind, su-30s are more than capable to defend the western front but it was brought to make-up for shortage in nos. of ac in IAF & to make a strong defence against an eastern neighbor who will field not 1, not 2 but 3 stealth jets in the near future. Su-30 with upgrades or super sukhois are no doubt a very capable ac but what about say 2 decades from now where 4+ gen ac like su-30s will be an old ac (like mig-21 now) & all modern AFs will be operating either 4.5+ gen or 5th gen jets. IAF induct an ac not just for meeting it's present demands but also to tackle the future threats.

That's why i think the US is the sole superpower of the world, when we are still doubting if we need a 4.5 gen ac or not, it is working on producing 6th gen ac.

Indian armed forces have moved on from adversary based defence. Everything we buy or, produce are supposed to enhance our capability.

This theory of " to make up shortage of jets" would have worked if we had bought the Mirage production line in early 2000's. But since the production of Jets will not start before 2017-2018 in India and by then Pak-Fa will be ready and so will be LCA-II if sufficient fund is allocated.

And this 4+ Gen or, 4.5 Gen or, 4.5+ Gen. is a creation of defence forums.I have not come across these terms anywhere else.
And If we really are bothered about the huge number of highly capable 5th Gen aircraft ( which I doubt as 5th gen aircraft does not just have LO shape but many other techs. ) , then we should do something about cranking up our own capability to produce our own Jets.

 

[MehrotraPrince]

Difference of opinion here.

Rafale was never brought keeping Pakistan in mind, su-30s are more than capable to defend the western front but it was brought to make-up for shortage in nos. of ac in IAF & to make a strong defence against an eastern neighbor who will field not 1, not 2 but 3 stealth jets in the near future. Su-30 with upgrades or super sukhois are no doubt a very capable ac but what about say 2 decades from now where 4+ gen ac like su-30s will be an old ac (like mig-21 now) & all modern AFs will be operating either 4.5+ gen or 5th gen jets. IAF induct an ac not just for meeting it's present demands but also to tackle the future threats.

That's why i think the US is the sole superpower of the world, when we are still doubting if we need a 4.5 gen ac or not, it is working on producing 6th gen ac.

No its not about our Eastern or western neighbor, its all about operational cost and industrial benefits, We are not USA or any other European country with per capita income of $ 35,000, we need to be economical and cost effective in both long and short term. Rafale is much cheaper to operate and maintain as compared to our Su-30MKI. Super Sukhois too are formidable weapon platform, they are no less than Rafale, With AESA radars, new engines and other avionic upgrade it will be better than Rafale as far as air to air combat and range is concerned.

 

[zaxcolix]

Do you have answer to the question raised by Ajay Shukla…???... Even I can see HAL's answer is not Satisfactory at all..

As much as I dislike HAL, the reality is they are the only one with any expertise in building a complex aircraft.

Other vendors need to build up the capabilities and that needs to be done in a resonable manner. Giving them responsibility to be the lead integrator is a sure way to costly failure and long delays. (french wont mind that ...as they stand to make money on any delay)

Ideally LCA should have been handed over to private vendors and not to HAL. That way we would have seen birth of an truly indigenous Aerospace industry.

 

[janon]

Thats exactly my point sir. If we need help with some tech. we could have gone for JV ala Barak Deals or, like we are seeking for Kaveri. There was no need for such a costly procurement. We could have gained much more from a JV than we ever will from "full ToT".

BTW Akula is not just for operational experience ( which itself is invaluable as no other option is available), it comes with a whole package deal which can not be explained in a public forum.

Joint venture can work for missiles, but not for 4.5th gen aircrafts. For one thing, designing and putting a fighter into production requires decades. Whether the LCA or Rafale or Eurofighter, each of these took decades from planning to production. We needed a modern fighter YESTERDAY. Also, who other than India had a need at that time to develop a new fighter from scratch? Europe had two excellent fighters already, the rafale and the EF. Which country do you think would have agreed to start a JV for producing an MRCA? Which country with experience, and the ability to deliver in the time frame that the IAF required?

A joint venture was out of the question for our requirement of a modern M-MRCA. For a fifth gen fighter, we are doing a JV with Russia. There we have the luxury of time, and the luxury of having an aerospace giant (Russia) who has the same need in roughly the same time frame.

 

[faithfulguy]

Full ToT is one of the most abused term used in defence forums. Full ToT means you can manufacture that particular system in your own country from scratch under the supervision of OEM. You will have to pay a fee for doing this. This does not allow you to develop the product further or, refine it on your own.

For example: India has been manufacturing engines and radar for russian planes for long now. Still when recently we tried to tweak radar of Su-30MKI , we were unable to get it working and in the end had to approach OEM . Same is the case with Engines.We have been producing engines for Su-30 but cant get our Kaveri to work completely. China has been manufacturing Russian engines for decades now but still cant get their own engine working and has to depend on Russia for this.

I am therefore not sure of this ToT hoopla and know that we wont gain anything substantial from this Rafale deal. BTW the Kaveri-Snecma deal has gone for a toss. This just shows the kind of confidence GTRE has on the ToT coming from this deal. Same will be the fate of ToT on Radar.

Totally true. Its one thing to learn the full detail of building an existing products, even all the parts. Another matter to build something even simpler from scratch. As I had said it again and again, do not waste money on TOT. focus on develop prove of concept technology while purchase from abroad for actual usage

 

[jha]

@janon,

I was not talking about a JV for aircraft. I was talking about JV for the techs. everybody is hoping to get out of this deal.

 

[janon]

@janon,

I was talking about a JV for aircraft. I was talking about JV for the techs. everybody is hoping to get out of this deal.

So where would we get aircrafts from? If we are buying rafale, do you think we could start a JV for new radars and engines and other components? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to get ToT for those and produce them locally?

Of course, we would learn more in a JV, but remember what our needs were/are.

We are going for a JV on all the 5th gen techs. But for our requirement of 4.5 gen M-MRCAs, local production with ToT was the best possible option.

If that doesn't work out, then outright purchase. But I am sure they will make it work out.

 

[Koovie]

Indian armed forces have moved on from adversary based defence. Everything we buy or, produce are supposed to enhance our capability.

This theory of " to make up shortage of jets" would have worked if we had bought the Mirage production line in early 2000's. But since the production of Jets will not start before 2017-2018 in India and by then Pak-Fa will be ready and so will be LCA-II if sufficient fund is allocated.

And this 4+ Gen or, 4.5 Gen or, 4.5+ Gen. is a creation of defence forums.I have not come across these terms anywhere else.
And If we really are bothered about the huge number of highly capable 5th Gen aircraft ( which I doubt as 5th gen aircraft does not just have LO shape but many other techs. ) , then we should do something about cranking up our own capability to produce our own Jets.

"The United States Government defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments."

Fourth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jha]

So where would we get aircrafts from? If we are buying rafale, do you think we could start a JV for new radars and engines and other components? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to get ToT for those and produce them locally?

Of course, we would learn more in a JV, but remember what our needs were/are.

We are going for a JV on all the 5th gen techs. But for our requirement of 4.5 gen M-MRCAs, local production with ToT was the best possible option.

If that doesn't work out, then outright purchase. But I am sure they will make it work out.

Well, I am against buying costly planes. I am of view that we should push for LCA-II and LCA-III with the Tech. available off the shelf or, developed using JV. We can buy and produce these in any numbers we want. This will help us in development of AMCA.

But IAF and MoD folks know better...

"The United States Government defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments."

Fourth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was talking about "+" Gens.... and many people dont agree with the "generation" of fighters being defined by USA....