Misinformation on China

[overseer]

China has never provoked the US in any sort of way.

Threatenign to nuke LA, actively sayign how they will sink carriers, ramming a elint plain in international waters and then holding the crew hostage and ransacking the plane in violation of international law, massive spy rings in the US, theft of nuclear weapon secrets, attempted purchase of high tech items and the list goes on, threatening a major US Ally repeatedly, interferrign with US treaty obligations etc.

Oh gawd, see, more sinophobic propaganda.

First, the nuke LA threat.
I believe what the general was actually saying was :"I think the american value LA more than they value Taipei". Did he mention nuke??

Second, it was a response to the American threat. The american threaten first. The american has being making threats of nuking China since Korean war !! (General MacArthur I believe and a bunch of other generals was saying that - later it was a bunch of generals during Vietnam war that was making the same threat), So when America repeatly threaten China over Taiwan, you actually get a very "mild" response. So your comment is a total hypocrisy and totally unjustified. Remember, it is america that pro-actively threatening others first. And I am surprise you are shocked to get what you dish out to others.

As for "ramming a(n) elint plain (plane) in international waters and then holding the crew(s) hostage and ransacking the plane in violation of international law" - first, you have violated the Chinese territorial water integrity. Either that or too close to it. If the reverse is done to america, I am very sure, American would have shot down Chinese Elint plane without even batting an eye. Infact, a Chinese ELINT plane would never even get pass Guam. NOW THAT'S TOTAL HYPOCRISY. America would never allow anyone even get close to its shore or even anything remote to it. Total hypocrisy.

As for spy ring, I am sure CIA/NSA does exactly the same thing to China. SO PLEASE, SPARE ME THE HYPOCRISY. When CIA/NSA does it to others, it is all a "win to the american intelligence community", but when the reverse happen to you, you cried foul and whine to no end. So, cry me a river, like anyone would care.

I never said that, but instead of a colorful metaphor more fititgn a military based forjum I should have just stuck with the old version- An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure.

You are the one who keeps bringing race and phobia int the mix, it is fairly obvious you ar eprojecting your racism onto me. It won't work so you should try something else.

You are implying it. And it is fairly easy to pick it out. China bashing seems to be the fad right now.

On to PPP, your attempt to discredit it fails miserably. While a Chip, a ton of armor grade steel, or som other high tech military technology should cost the same across national borders it doesn't. While a new fighter in the US,UK,Japan would ahve comaprable costs, a new fighter form a centralized and planned economy wouldn't. More centralized state run/state owned economies have historically shown massive cost savings for comaprable items not least becuase of the lack of signifigant profit factor. One has only to comapre the price of an F-15 to a SU-30MKM to see the differance or an F-16blk52 to a J-10. PPP does translate into this realm.

Oh I am?? I failed miserably?? Says who? You?? LMAO. Please if you want to make this kind of statement, please fix your spellings and tidying up your sentences, and make more logical argument with references. It is pathetic to read uneducated statements or argument full of spelling errors and no reference.

Now, Let's see, J-10 cost $40 million each with its single engine (lacking a FADEC), average avionics and radars, is more comparable to F-16 earlier version (A/B) which cost $16 million each. WOW!! OMG !! It's actually CHEAPER!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon

And now onto Su-30 MKI, which cost $33-45 million each, compare to the similar F-15 A/B/C/D which cost $28-30 million each...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15

Again, it seems your argument failed miserably.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

As for "ramming a(n) elint plain (plane) in international waters and then holding the crew(s) hostage and ransacking the plane in violation of international law" - first, you have violated the Chinese territorial water integrity. Either that or too close to it.

WRONG! The waters was part of the Chinese EEZ but it is NOT Chinese territorial waters nor even close to it. The Chinese have NO jurisdiction on any military traffic through the EEZ.

If the reverse is done to america, I am very sure, American would have shot down Chinese Elint plane without even batting an eye. Infact, a Chinese ELINT plane would never even get pass Guam. NOW THAT'S TOTAL HYPOCRISY. America would never allow anyone even get close to its shore or even anything remote to it. Total hypocrisy.

Oh Horse Puckey. Chinese fishing boats and scientific ships regularly get close to American battle groups. Hell, you've got a MING surfacing within torpedo range and your crew went home without incident.

Soviet/Russian BOMBERS, at times, filled with nukes regularly flew close to North American air borders. They were not shot down nor harassed. They were intercepted, escourted, and waited out until they went home.

Know the history before jumping off the propaganda bandwagon.

 

[overseer]

WRONG! The waters was part of the Chinese EEZ but it is NOT Chinese territorial waters nor even close to it. The Chinese have NO jurisdiction on any military traffic through the EEZ.

WRONG!
"The EP-3E entered Chinese airspace without authorization and made an emergency landing at the Chinese military airfield in Hainan."

It was definitely an unauthorized air intrusion. And treated as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-China_Spy_Plane_Incident

Oh Horse Puckey. Chinese fishing boats and scientific ships regularly get close to American battle groups.

Fishing boat? Scientific ship? Dude, are those ELINT SPY PLANES?!

Soviet/Russian BOMBERS, at times, filled with nukes regularly flew close to North American air borders. They were not shot down nor harassed. They were intercepted, escourted, and waited out until they went home.

Give me a source

 

[Officer of Engineers]

WRONG!
"The EP-3E entered Chinese airspace without authorization and made an emergency landing at the Chinese military airfield in Hainan."

If you want to play that game, the authority to enter Chinese airspace comes under the Mayday Declaration of which the PRC is a signatory. Whether the Chinese received the mayday or not is speculation since the PLA has both black boxes.

It was definitely an unauthorized air intrusion. And treated as such.

Oh no it was not. If that was the way the PLA handles air intrusion, then you can kiss Beijing goodbye. Hell, the entire episode represents more keystone cops than professionalism. Reading the entire thing, the PLA had absolutely no clue as to what to do. The EP-3 was not even escourted to a civilian runway.

Fishing boat? Scientific ship? Dude, are those ELINT SPY PLANES?!

Planes? No. Doing the same job. Yes or do you just ignore all those antanaes and wires and radar scopes just dripping off those things?

Give me a source

http://www.google.ca/search?q=Cold+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[zraver]

Second, it was a response to the American threat. The american threaten first. The american has being making threats of nuking China since Korean war !! (General MacArthur I believe and a bunch of other generals was saying that - later it was a bunch of generals during Vietnam war that was making the same threat), So when America repeatly threaten China over Taiwan, you actually get a very "mild" response. So your comment is a total hypocrisy and totally unjustified. Remember, it is america that pro-actively threatening others first.

Wrong, the US is a signatory ally of both South Korea and the Republic of China, China attacked/threatended to attack/ or supported attacks on those countries. The US has been an ally of the KMT(RoC) since the 1930's long before the PRC existed. The US has likewise been a South Korean ally since that nations birth. In Vietnam Chinese weapons were killing US troops. You can pretend the PRC is blameless but histry paints a different picture.

As for the J-10/F-16 Comparing 1980 dollars to 2007 dollars is erroneous and you know it.

The racism is not present in my posts, but it is in yours. As is your politcal biases.

 

[overseer]

If you want to play that game, the authority to enter Chinese airspace comes under the Mayday Declaration of which the PRC is a signatory. Whether the Chinese received the mayday or not is speculation since the PLA has both black boxes.

Again, source please

Oh no it was not. If that was the way the PLA handles air intrusion, then you can kiss Beijing goodbye. Hell, the entire episode represents more keystone cops than professionalism. Reading the entire thing, the PLA had absolutely no clue as to what to do. The EP-3 was not even escourted to a civilian runway.

Or China should just have shot it down.

Planes? No. Doing the same job. Yes or do you just ignore all those antanaes and wires and radar scopes just dripping off those things?

Source please!

 

[overseer]

Wrong, the US is a signatory ally of both South Korea and the Republic of China, China attacked/threatended to attack/ or supported attacks on those countries. The US has been an ally of the KMT(RoC) since the 1930's long before the PRC existed. The US has likewise been a South Korean ally since that nations birth. In Vietnam Chinese weapons were killing US troops. You can pretend the PRC is blameless but histry paints a different picture.

And US had been killing Vietnamese civilians and trying to justify it.

As for the J-10/F-16 Comparing 1980 dollars to 2007 dollars is erroneous and you know it.

Actually, As more F-16 is produced, it's production cost goes down.
Secondly, J-10 is no where nearly deck out as F-16. If J-10 is as deck out as F-16, it would probably cost the the same.

 

[kvLin]

Wrong, the US is a signatory ally of both South Korea and the Republic of China, China attacked/threatended to attack/ or supported attacks on those countries. The US has been an ally of the KMT(RoC) since the 1930's long before the PRC existed. The US has likewise been a South Korean ally since that nations birth. In Vietnam Chinese weapons were killing US troops. You can pretend the PRC is blameless but histry paints a different picture.

zraver, I would recommend "War and Nationalism in China, 1925-1945" (Van de Ven-Cambridge University), if you want to know about the "internationalistic ally" USA.

and, if you wanna blame China for supporting Vietnam(North), better place your curse on her over Korean War. suppose you're a native American and love your motherland,what if north part of Canada and south part Mexico already went red under assistance of Soviet Union,and other halfs of the two next door neighbors were just being converted in the same way?

would you fight that? if so, are you threatening Soviet Union or contrariwise?

tell me who's threatening who during Cuba missile crisis, USA did Soviet Union?

 

[zraver]

KvLin,

Both sides had thie rnational interests in play and used proxies and allies. However the claim by Overseer was that China had never threatened America and it was all America's fault. That is false and he knows it.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Again, source please

http://www.asil.org/insights/insigh66.htm

Or China should just have shot it down.

Not the 1st time that would've happened and by the Chinese. The Chinese shot down U2s flying from Taiwan. However, in this scenario, at the very least radio contact to state that you're being watched. Lt Osborn was quite surprised that there was not even a weapons lock.

Source please!

mmmmmm, google, drooooool

http://www.google.ca/search?q=Chine...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[kvLin]

China has never provoked the US in any sort of way.

1.Threatenign to nuke LA, 2.actively sayign how they will sink carriers, 3.ramming a elint plain in international waters and 4.then holding the crew hostage and ransacking the plane in violation of international law, 5.massive spy rings in the US, 6.theft of nuclear weapon secrets, 7.attempted purchase of high tech items and the list goes on, 8.threatening a major US Ally repeatedly, 9,interferrign with US treaty obligations etc.

By those words above, I feel you're just out of yourself and better get back from nuts to saneness. pls dont make things out of your mouth too easily before you can prove.

1. when/where/how did you hear that?

2. So? tell me Carrier=USN

3. reconnoitring from the high seas or EEZ doen't break the international law,nor does ramming an elint plane over there. did anyone pissoff the flanker who even tore up a Norwegian P-3B? be aware that J-8 was just playing bumping which was kindergarten compared to all the USN border games.

4. Not a single term of the intenational law stands with a snake fly along other's EEZ line. you'd been doing it everyday and then want the defensing people to play host on you?

5. you say that American never spy.lol give me a break,US has the biggest intelligence agency and you know that.

6. simply tell me who did the theft. why was the guy finally affranchised after prosecution? do you know what did Bill Richardson,former boss of the "theft",later on the sheriff of New mexico define the case?

7. so? USA just attempted so many things in your 200-year history, including purchasement of some of your stars in your flag.

8. the former N.Vietnam used to be China's ally,tell me why USA sent troops there and bombed their land and people?

9. know the Kyoto Protocol?

if you dont, now take a sit for some blues music:

Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself. ---Eric Clapton.

You are the one who keeps bringing race and phobia int the mix, it is fairly obvious you ar eprojecting your racism onto me. It won't work so you should try something else.

hereby I would suggest Overseer something else: double standard, catathymic amnesia, or other experties of USA.

 

[kvLin]

KvLin,

Both sides had thie rnational interests in play and used proxies and allies. However the claim by Overseer was that China had never threatened America and it was all America's fault. That is false and he knows it.

well, honestly, I can put my foot into US shoes.

Is China a threat to USA? IMO,China will never mean to be. yet since the US has expanded its living space up to global wide, China will play the role inconsciently.
so, my answer is, maybe.

Is USA a threat to China? absolutely. it's at the door.

both have their own concerns,difference exists that one is stronger,speaks louder,and takes more space for granted.

Last but not the least, if China were non-communistic and devotedly resign to US will and interests, things would be more than simple. I guess Americans do love the Olympics for its slogan: One world,one family (under US papa's wings--what a peaceful picture and a holy moment!)

 

[zraver]

China has never provoked the US in any sort of way.

By those words above, I feel you're just out of yourself and better get back from nuts to saneness. pls dont make things out of your mouth too easily before you can prove.

1. when/where/how did you hear that?

2. So? tell me Carrier=USN

3. reconnoitring from the high seas or EEZ doen't break the international law,nor does ramming an elint plane over there. did anyone pissoff the flanker who even tore up a Norwegian P-3B? be aware that J-8 was just playing bumping which was kindergarten compared to all the USN border games.

4. Not a single term of the intenational law stands with a snake fly along other's EEZ line. you'd been doing it everyday and then want the defensing people to play host on you?

5. you say that American never spy.lol give me a break,US has the biggest intelligence agency and you know that.

6. simply tell me who did the theft. why was the guy finally affranchised after prosecution? do you know what did Bill Richardson,former boss of the "theft",later on the sheriff of New mexico define the case?

7. so? USA just attempted so many things in your 200-year history, including purchasement of some of your stars in your flag.

8. the former N.Vietnam used to be China's ally,tell me why USA sent troops there and bombed their land and people?

9. know the Kyoto Protocol?

if you dont, now take a sit for some blues music:

Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself. ---Eric Clapton.

hereby I would suggest Overseer something else: double standard, catathymic amnesia, or other experties of USA.

1- Bill Gertz in his book The China Threat records three instances when PRC officials have threatened nuclear war of Taiwan.

Most recently Maj Gen Zhu

Then of course there is "Unrestricted Warfare" 1998 Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui. Which detaisl unrestricted attacks on the American fabric.

2- Chinese Major General Huang Bin explained the reasoning: 'Once we decide to use force against Taiwan, we definitely will consider an intervention by the United States. The United States likes vain glory; if one of its aircraft carriers should be attacked and destroyed, people in the United States would begin to complain and quarrel loudly, and the U.S. president would find the going harder and harder.' ... Once a military conflict occurs in the Taiwan Strait, the United States certainly will intervene, but the scale will be limited. The United States may send several aircraft-carrier battle groups, but they will never dare to sail to the Taiwan Strait [itself, as this would put them] into a dangerous position. Missiles, aircraft and submarines are all means that can be used to attack an aircraft carrier. [In 1996] U.S. aircraft carriers arrived but suddenly fell back by 200 nautical miles, because Chinese nuclear submarines were operating close to the U.S. aircraft carriers.... Once [the carriers are] threatened, [the United States] will run away.

3- Where do you get ramming a plane in itnernational waters isn't a crime. The Chinese pilot lost his life and the US Crew almsot did.

4- Huh? I am not understandign you, could you clean this up please I think a language issue is in play.

5- I never said American's don't spy

6- Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo and he plead guilty, Moo, 58, pleaded guilty to being a covert Chinese agent, conspiring to broker and export U.S. defense items and attempting to pay a $500,000 bribe to win release from custody.

He faces up to 30 years in prison and fines of $2 million at sentencing, which was not immediately scheduled.

8- and the point is? We are talking actions the US percieves as hostile towards its national interests. While nations ahve competing interests that do not always agree. The US has the right to pursue its goals every bit as much as the PRC does.

9- Kyoto is not a treaty in the US as it was never ratified by our senate.

 

[overseer]

1- Bill Gertz in his book The China Threat records three instances when PRC officials have threatened nuclear war of Taiwan.

Most recently Maj Gen Zhu

Then of course there is "Unrestricted Warfare" 1998 Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui. Which detaisl unrestricted attacks on the American fabric.

That's totally hypocritical. So, US never threaten anyone with nukes?? Wait a second here...let's me remind you, not only US routinely threaten other people with nukes, it is also THE ONLY COUNTRY TO BOMB OTHERS WITH NUKES!!

2- Chinese Major General Huang Bin explained the reasoning: 'Once we decide to use force against Taiwan, we definitely will consider an intervention by the United States. The United States likes vain glory; if one of its aircraft carriers should be attacked and destroyed, people in the United States would begin to complain and quarrel loudly, and the U.S. president would find the going harder and harder.' ... Once a military conflict occurs in the Taiwan Strait, the United States certainly will intervene, but the scale will be limited. The United States may send several aircraft-carrier battle groups, but they will never dare to sail to the Taiwan Strait [itself, as this would put them] into a dangerous position. Missiles, aircraft and submarines are all means that can be used to attack an aircraft carrier. [In 1996] U.S. aircraft carriers arrived but suddenly fell back by 200 nautical miles, because Chinese nuclear submarines were operating close to the U.S. aircraft carriers.... Once [the carriers are] threatened, [the United States] will run away.

Again, you should be aware that US has historically threaten China and other countries (including using nukes on cities). This is not to mention US did not pledge of "no-first use" - it still has pre-emptive first strike policy.

3- Where do you get ramming a plane in itnernational waters isn't a crime. The Chinese pilot lost his life and the US Crew almsot did.

There is no proof that Chinese pilot ram the american plane. It was the other way around.

Why would chinese pilot ram a plane much larger than itself?? There is no reason for Chinese pilot to ram his plane, as it would be like a cat ramming up the bull, a suicide. The american EP-3E has the mass advantage, it use that advantage and ram the chinese jet when it got close.

5- I never said American's don't spy

Backtracking. You accused China of spying, as if you don't spy.

6- Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo and he plead guilty, Moo, 58, pleaded guilty to being a covert Chinese agent, conspiring to broker and export U.S. defense items and attempting to pay a $500,000 bribe to win release from custody.

He faces up to 30 years in prison and fines of $2 million at sentencing, which was not immediately scheduled.

Isn't this Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo a TAIWANESE??

8- and the point is? We are talking actions the US percieves as hostile towards its national interests. While nations ahve competing interests that do not always agree. The US has the right to pursue its goals every bit as much as the PRC does.

Again, hypocritical comment. So when non-US action "violates" US interest, it starts the name calling games. But when any signs of US supremacy is going to be challenged, it is "YOUR RIGHT TO TAKE ACTION". So, China or any nation by extension have absolutely no right?


If US is allow to threaten to nuke China for decades, now China is even "hinted" of threatening US supremacy, China is being single out as guilty. Isn't that just totally hypocritical?

By the way, I think you miss a digit of your finger.
where is SEVEN?

 

[zraver]

That's totally hypocritical. So, US never threaten anyone with nukes?? Wait a second here...let's me remind you, not only US routinely threaten other people with nukes, it is also THE ONLY COUNTRY TO BOMB OTHERS WITH NUKES!!

1- No on ehas denied the US's use of strong arm tactics. You're denying the fact that China does the same thing.

2- You might want to do some research on Imperial Japan beofre you go defending them. They killed many times more people in WW2 than the US did on both fronts. They depopulated whole regions of China with WMD's, including a plague that is still cropping up today.

Again, you should be aware that US has historically threaten China and other countries (including using nukes on cities). This is not to mention US did not pledge of "no-first use" - it still has pre-emptive first strike policy.

Again no one is denying US actions, your denying the actiosn of the PRC.

There is no proof that Chinese pilot ram the american plane. It was the other way around.

Ok, you really are stupid how does a 4 engined nearly commerical airliner sized whale of a plane ram a small nimble mach 2 fighter? Ever heard of - right of way by tonnage? (low of gross tonnage) It is a an accpeted law that the heavier vessel always has right of way beicase it's mass prevents effective defensive manuvering to avoid a collision. The Burden was on the Chinese pilot to not endanger the aircraf. There is also no radar tapes showing the US plane doing anything but flying straight and level. If the PRC's had been able to show the US craft doing anything but strsight and level they would have.

Backtracking. You accused China of spying, as if you don't spy.

No back tracking at all you idiot. I have not defended the US actions, you are the one denying Chinese actions.

Isn't this Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo a TAIWANESE??

it doesn't matter who he is, its who he was admittedly spying for. Aldrich Ames was an American- he is also a Soviet Spy.

Again, hypocritical comment. So when non-US action "violates" US interest, it starts the name calling games. But when any signs of US supremacy is going to be challenged, it is "YOUR RIGHT TO TAKE ACTION". So, China or any nation by extension have absolutely no right?

I never said that, but if China pursues an agedna that the US doesn't approve of the US will tr yand block it. The US's duty isn't to play fair or aquiese to PRC demands but to safeguard its and its allies interests.

BTW- 7 was unneeded, US history is an open book no one denies the good or the bad. Your the one denying the PRC's actions.