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Mirage planes upgraded at Rs 167 cr per aircraft in 2011: Govt

Can you give any instance where the progress of the LCA or AMCA has been delayed due to lack of funds? Any time that the developers have pleaded for money and not been given?

Money that is being poured into the mirage upgrade is NOT at the expense of domestic programs. One may question the wisdom of going for such an expensive upgrade - and the IAF has actually offered their point of view on the necessity - but lets not insinuate that this is somehow affecting the domestic efforts.

That is the point they have to plead and beg for support from both the IAF and gov for any desi development. Even then they are given minuscule funds. Generosity is only reserved for the foreign OEMs.
 
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That is the point they have to plead and beg for support from both the IAF and gov for any desi development. Even then they are given minuscule funds. Generosity is only reserved for the foreign OEMs.

Once again you are making the same accusation without backing it up. When has the LCA or AMCA development been held up due to lack of funds? Can you point out any instance in the history of either program when the available funds were criticized as being "miniscule"?

It is a simplistic assumption from many people that throwing money at a problem would solve the problem.

Unless you can backup such claims, please don't make accusations. Because words written on the internet are not like words written on paper - these words stick around forever. Somebody will read it and get it imprinted in his or her mind that domestic research and development have been starved of funds - which is simply not true for the LCA or AMCA programs.

That last sentence is yet another blanket accusation that, unless you can provide specific examples, you should not make. No defence related aerospace program in India has been held up due to shortage of money. Let us not blame our lack of expertise and industrial capability on lack of funds, because in doing so we are doing ourselves a disservice. And we are doing a disservice to our men and women in uniform by making these baseless accusations that they are generous towards foreigners, but not to the Indian industry etc.

HAL has never been short of money. That's a fact.
 
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India bought Mirage-2000 warplanes for Rs 133 crore each in year 2000, while the cost of upgrading the aircraft came to Rs 167 crore per unit in 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony said today.

Do i read this right....Eleven years down the line, it's going to cost some Rs 35 Crore more just to upgrade than the original price for the jet......apart from the systems and avionics package does the upgrade includes new engines. ?
If not than seems an expensive affair. !!
 
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I sill think this money should have been spent on buying more MKI's or Rafales off the shelf. Most of the Mirage air frames are 25+ years old. Putting this much money into them is a waste.

Completely agree with you.
 
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Once again you are making the same accusation without backing it up. When has the LCA or AMCA development been held up due to lack of funds? Can you point out any instance in the history of either program when the available funds were criticized as being "miniscule"?

Do you think ADA will go public and criticize the gov and IAF? Just compare the upfront cost of Rs 17,547 crore for the upgrade program of a 25 yr old airframe with that of LCA tejas overall developmental cost of Rs 17,269 cr by 2018 that too done in batches, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, I would call that a minuscule investment for a desi program. IAF has upfront funded the development of FGFA/PAKFA, but not interested in funding desi program AMCA that can replace jaguars etc in medium category after 2030. Not showing generosity delays the desi programs, for example Kaveri engine has to be taken to Russia for high altitude testing. I think IAF or the gov can be generous enough to fund the high altitude test facility in India to avoid all the tamasha of taking it to russia?
 
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Do you think ADA will go public and criticize the gov and IAF? Just compare the upfront cost of Rs 17,547 crore for the upgrade program of a 25 yr old airframe with that of LCA tejas overall developmental cost of Rs 17,269 cr by 2018 that too done in batches, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, I would call that a minuscule investment for a desi program. IAF has upfront funded the development of FGFA/PAKFA, but not interested in funding desi program AMCA that can replace jaguars etc in medium category after 2030. Not showing generosity delays the desi programs, for example Kaveri engine has to be taken to Russia for high altitude testing. I think IAF or the gov can be generous enough to fund the high altitude test facility in India to avoid all the tamasha of taking it to russia?

Point one: R&D takes a lot less money in India because of the lower salaries and labor costs. Check out how much an Indian scientist needs to be paid, and how much a French one needs to be paid. Only one billion has been allocated to the LCA program, because THAT IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED to be allocated in India. The slowness of the LCA program was not due to lack of funds, but because we had zero experience in that field, and zero supporting ecosystem for an aviation industry.

Point two: WRT the engine testing facility - once again you are making the mistaken assumption that money solves everything. Do you think that if the IAF had thrown a billion dollars, a high altitude test facility would magically have appeared in India? We could not have built such a system ourselves - that is a very specialized, niche technology that only exist in a handful of places in the world, due to their extensive experience with rocket engines spanning half a century or more. One of the reasons for the C-17 deal being so pricey is because half a billion dollars would be spent by Boeing in establishing such a facility for us in India. Without Boeing's help, we would not be able to set one up even if we pump in a hundred billion dollars.

Developing a technological base for such an advanced area like the aerospace sector is not a joke, and is not something that will magically happen if enough money is spent. It takes hard work, which is what we did with the entire LCA program. Funds were not an issue at all. Our inexperience and lack of technological base was what was wrong, and that is what we addressed with the program. It would not have happened any faster or better if more money was spent. They spent as much money as was needed. There is no doubting that fact.

If HAL could have done these upgrades of mirages themselves, then we would not have needed to go to France. But the unfortunate fact is that nobody in India has the technological ability to do this kind of an upgrade, and so Dassault WILL make us pay through our nose. We need the mirages for some time to come, since they are still our second best combat aircraft, and we need them to stay relevant and potent. We have the need, but we don't have the capability to do it ourselves - so what happens? We have no choice but to go to Dassault, and being good businessmen, they will charge us an arm and a leg.

If HAL could have done it themselves, it would have cost much less. And you can be sure that IAF would have gone for that route. But as things stand, HAL doesn't have the ability, and so IAF has no choice, but to go down this route. Let us not put the blame on the IAF for what is a collective failing of our nation to develop technological and industrial capabilities.
 
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Do i read this right....Eleven years down the line, it's going to cost some Rs 35 Crore more just to upgrade than the original price for the jet......apart from the systems and avionics package does the upgrade includes new engines. ?
If not than seems an expensive affair. !!

But point is we are not spending 35 crores we are spending 167 Cr on upgrade when we can have a brand new MKI about the same price. And MKIs would be more capable than these upgraded planes any days.
Or just can add 40 Rafaels in the existing deal. And these planes could have been sold to some poor AF
 
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upgradation will be completed in 2021-22
situation totally change
it is better for india to focus on lca
 
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Can you give any instance where the progress of the LCA or AMCA has been delayed due to lack of funds? Any time that the developers have pleaded for money and not been given?

Money that is being poured into the mirage upgrade is NOT at the expense of domestic programs. One may question the wisdom of going for such an expensive upgrade - and the IAF has actually offered their point of view on the necessity - but lets not insinuate that this is somehow affecting the domestic efforts.

Every time. No full funding before 90, than cut due to economic down in 92, than in 98.:cheesy:
 
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But point is we are not spending 35 crores we are spending 167 Cr on upgrade when we can have a brand new MKI about the same price. And MKIs would be more capable than these upgraded planes any days.
Or just can add 40 Rafaels in the existing deal. And these planes could have been sold to some poor AF

You mis-read me, Rs 167 Crore is some Rs 35 Crore more than the original price of Rs 133 Crore for each aircraft.
In simple term you are spending more on a it than it's original worth.....which is rather baffling.
Mr Dassault will be delighted. !!
 
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You mis-read me, Rs 167 Crore is some Rs 35 Crore more than the original price of Rs 133 Crore for each aircraft.
In simple term you are spending more on a it than it's original worth.....which is rather baffling.
Mr Dassault will be delighted. !!

Didn't I say the same thing ???
 
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I sill think this money should have been spent on buying more MKI's or Rafales off the shelf. Most of the Mirage air frames are 25+ years old. Putting this much money into them is a waste.

Unlike Rafale, Mirage is tested plate form for IAF, they knew it strength/weakness & can make good tactics for roles in war scenario and have tested strong infrastructure. Indeed Rafale is better choice but for that Rafale needs atleast 5-10 year service in IAF.


Unlike Mirage, mki are more hungry for money. So until a new medium/light plteform doesnt come for service in IAF in # untill than older plateforms are good.


Cost of upgrade is too high, but we are seeing only a end not 2nd end. There is huge structural modification in airframe especially in change in wings and Avionics & architecture will be on next stage, on the of par of 5 gen fighters. Unlike mig29 where we only chose avionics modification.
 
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