Mirage 2000 to PAF? UAE

[mean_bird]

After 9/11 when the sanctions were lifted---it took them another 4 years to place an order for the planes that they were very familiar with F 16 blk 52---THAT 4 YEARS TIME CONSTITUTES TO CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE on the part of PAF( from 2002 till 2005---2005 is when they placed the order )

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the US offer to resume sale came in 2004/5 not right after 9/11. So it is wrong to say that PAF kept waiting for 4 years.

Also its wrong to assume that we had "abundant wealth" during that time. Our financial situation started getting better our 2004-2006.
Not that I am trying to defend PAF policy but just putting the facts in order.

 

[ejaz007]

Isn't this topic under discussion in some other thread.

In a way Mastan Khan is right PAF should have immediately started lobbying for F-16. They perhaps would have got them relatively easily then.

 

[pakpower]

Why all you guys fighting with each other on past which had gone long time ago. Let's hope for the best for PAF and for Pakistan, but I seriously doubt it because at the current progress PAF wont be able to get good serious jets in near future.

For example our near future prime jet procurements would be J-10B if it's become a reality which I also doubt it.

So talking on past about MK2-5 or - is highly wastage of time I guess.

 

[Munir]

Why all you guys fighting with each other on past which had gone long time ago. Let's hope for the best for PAF and for Pakistan, but I seriously doubt it because at the current progress PAF wont be able to get good serious jets in near future.

For example our near future prime jet procurements would be J-10B if it's become a reality which I also doubt it.

So talking on past about MK2-5 or - is highly wastage of time I guess.

Highly? Please do expain how you gonna defend between 2009 and 2016 (You will start getting them in 2014/15 and it will take a few years to get the numbers and trained crew)... Why do other nations buy stop gap fighterjets and you conclude that it is HIGHLY WASTAGE? Someone with these heavy words should know a lot more them humble me... And near future is 5 years? You will be a dead nation if you are 6 months behind the opponent...

Or do you think you medium tech JF17 can handle everything, even if the numbers are just 6-8 at the moment? Well, then we should not look at 60 planes that can delivered direct and our pilots know pretty well how do handle them....

I must be a idiot and certainly a dumb person if I post topics like this... I feel I should delete the whole topic to honour your decent and intellectual reply. Thank your sir.

 

[All-Green]

I will not gun down PAF for the delayed F-16 order as maybe it was not on the offer till US and Pakistan Governments started talking on the F-16s in 2005, yes the Musharraf Regime should have immediately placed the order; knowing fully well what happened in Kargil i would say Musharraf should have been more perceptive since he was severely criticized by PAF top brass for the Kargil misfire...
I cannot directly blame PAF for the delay since lifting of sanctions does not necessarily imply that F-16 was also part of the deal.

Remember this is USA we are talking about, they were always reluctant to give the best to us, I faintly recall that the initial F-16 they were offering to us during Afghan War era was supposed to be a toned down version and only after pressure from Pakistan they gave us the real deal!

Even if they offered something good to us, the spares given by US were always deliberately cut back to ensure we did not have enough to sustain any prolonged adventure...
sorry but that will always be the case with US and we need to learn our lessons.

If there is a Mirage 2000 induction in PAF, then knowing both PAF expertise and the wide array of weapons and missions this fighter can boast of...we shall have a much more aggressively deployed PAF which is beyond a doubt the best thing for Pakistan in these troubled times when all and sundry are trying to teach us how to manage our own affairs!

Certainly the PAF Shaheen needs to soar the skies of its countries with razor sharp talons in these few years to teach the enemies both internal and external that this country is not to be made light of.

Thunder is a wonderful plane but the timeline associated with it is not going to help us in next 5 years which we should know are amongst the toughest for Pakistan.
FC-20 also suffers from the timeline issue so why do we think Mirage2000 is not a good option...the way i see it, it may well be the only option and boy will it make many countries nervous/careful to see these planes in our inventory...

Nuclear option is not something we can go to for in an encounter and engagement, it is the last option before defeat...it would be retarded to assume so that we plan our strategies purely based on Nukes and Missiles which are purely offensive weapons unlike a fighter jet
It is only PAF which will guarantee that our missile sites are secure and if god forbid the war turns into hell then it is PAF which will guarantee the use of Nukes...
Also it may well be that we also need to attack certain targets beyond our borders and what then, shall we send the precious few F-16s and risk losing a good percentage of our top of the line interceptors?

Airforce precision strikes by PAF should also be looked into in an uncontrolled conflict with the Terrorists in which they are based elsewhere after being flushed out of Pakistan...in that scenario as well we need to have a powerful airforce in order to ensure we can carry out our precision missions without fear of any misadventures.

We need a very strong airforce in the present tense and not just on paper, if we can manage a viable deal to get the mirage2000s, believe me it shall be one of the biggest boosts the PAF has ever been given and afterwards with the induction of thunders and FC-20 the mirage2000s will still very much remain a key asset in our armoury for atleast 2 decades and that is not to be ignored or made light of.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all it didnot have to be F 16 blk 52----we could have gone straight away for the m2k5/9 after the sanctions were taken off---but we should have had the ability to make a better deal for giving 6 airfields and all logistical support to the u s---that is the failure I am talking about---. We didnot have to wait till 2005 till the offer came----we should have harangued the u s for releasing our planes asap---within days---we should have been on the u s media.

Does it matter when the u s offered what----what matters is when we re-aligned---or were forced to re-align---did we tell them to release our F 16's that day or give us some from the reserves just to show some GOOD AMERICAN FAITH ( like earnest money )---where is the love.

We didnot strike the metal when it was hot----we should have taken our case in front the the u s public on the u s media in 2002-3 and cried a river of tears on the CNN.

It is good to show strength at times----but then it is better to show weakness and vulnerability as well---to get sympathy from the people.

The tracks on our rail lines should have been shifted from going to the u s, in going to france in 2002----that would have been a coupe de grace in itself.

Now down to the last few months---I keep trying to seperate the GDP from the paf heirarchy---this recent retd air chief is blaming Musharraf for diverting funds to buy 2 chineses awacs----this man still does not get it and understand the consequences of sanctions---we are talking about last month---isn't it---year 2009---there are still those in the paf decision making positions---who seem to be clueless as to what is happening

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,
We had other options available during u s sanctions----which should have been availed at the earlioest.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The PAKISTANI PRIDE killed pakistan in making a great deal---and making the americans pay through their nose.

People don't understand what happens to proud people during times of distress and unrest----they are found dead on the roadside or run around helpless orphaned and clueless what to do---.

Due to a freak chance of nature----the goose that laid the golden goose landed in pakistan----and stayed there for roughly 4 years---2002-2005---and we screw-ed up royally big time---instead of collecting the golden eggs---we were running after the goose and throwing sticks and stones at it, to keep it restless---so that it may not lay any eggs to help us better ourselves..

Let me give you a punjabi saying---sau littar we khai tay sau wassal we khai----it is a basic torutre technique by the police---

(translation littar is a long thick leather strap that the pakistani police use to beat you up with when they arrest you for a crime or toherwise---wassal's are bitter pakistani onion that have a horrile taste and make you teary eyed----

So it goes like this---" got spanked a 100 times by the leather strap and had to eat the 100 onions as well before confessing to the crime "---could have confessed earlier and saved ourself the indignity---but why.

Today---that is where we are---we are doing the job that should have been done years ago---the paf is moving ahead slowly---way / years behind the schedule---ALWAYS WANTING TO PLAY THE CATCH UP GAME.

Thinkin like THE PHOENIX, they would arise out of the ashes of their past and rule the skies with impunity.

 

[tamir]

Living outside has changed my perspective and opinion on Pakistani matters a little. Nothing negative but just more realistic and occasional critical. Stepping outside the circle and taking a look at things made the difference.

As far as this thread goes. I agree completely with Mastan sahib. When it comes to relations with the US..... I will believe it when we have an F-16 blk 52 on the tarmac in Pakistan.

 

[MZUBAIR]

But PAF ACM Rao Qamar Suleman is confident that we will get f-16 along with modern gadgets.


Pakistan to get Air Warning system by October this year: PAF Chief

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman , Thursday said that Pakistan would get Air Warning And Control System (AWACS) by October this year. Talking to media after addressing a joint graduation ceremony of General Duty Pilot, officers of Administration and Engineering Branch at Rislapur Academy, Air Chief said that acquiring of spying satellite and AWACS by India has imbalanced the power in the region. “This has caused a dent to the balance of power in the region - leading to an arm race,” he said.

Answering a question, he said, in this modern world, it is difficult to hide some area from the eye of the adversary. However, he said steps are in hand to check this aspect effectively. “We are acquiring modern gadgets along with the F-16 aircraft from the US to check and encounter this threat,” he said.

In reply to a question he said that India had already possessed 3500 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles while Pakistan is in the process of acquiring 500 such missiles to maintain the required level of deterrence. Rao Qamar told a questioner that the aspect of drone can be effectively encountered but the policy decision on the subject is to be taken by the Parliament and the Government.

He recalled that in 2001-02 the time of stand off between India and Pakistan, the PAF had shot down an Indian drone which had intruded the Pakistan territory. He said that PAF has been taking effective part in the Operation Rah-e-Rast which is meant to continue till the uprooting of terrorism from the area under operation besides restoration of the writ of the government.

He said “All possible efforts are being made to avoid collateral damage while using accurate and precise technology. No civil population area has been engaged by various fighter jets in the PAF inventory being used in the operation.” He said “no dumb bomb is ever pounded during the operation while very precise technology is being used to target the hideouts, ammunition dumps and training compounds of the terrorists.”

In addition to that, he pointed out that PAF has also been providing close support to the ground troops operating in the area of Operation. Quoting an example in this behalf, he said once the operation had to be delayed for over 24 hours to avoid damage to civilian population and it was carried out only after complete assurance by the ground forces that there will be no collateral damage. In reply to another question, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar said that the PAF has the capability to absorb any modern technology to defend the territorial jurisdiction of the country.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Some information from PAF that proves that PAF alreaady have few F-16 D Block 52.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi, Tamir,

20 plus years ago when I got into the auto sales business here in the u s---I got trained to understand that there is nothing negative about any situation----every stituation presents to you an oppurtunity---it is upto me to either make chicken soup out of it or chickensh-it. Did I fight the system in the begining---you bet I did---I showed them how much of a pakistani I was.

Every handshake with a customer is an oppurtunity for me to make a sale out of it---every objection that I get from a client gives me an oppurtunity to overcome the issue---but then there is one fundamental rule that is always followed---never assume about the client's ability to buy a vehicle just by his appearance----apearances are decieving---20 years in the business and I can't recall a single time---when a customer I talked to---the first words out of his mouth were " I want to buy a car " or sell me that car---I never sold that kind of customer a car.

We are trained not to let our egos stand in our way---we let insults hurled at us go by with a smile on our face---I mean to say that we are people and human as well---with kids and families---it gets insulting and humiliating at times but then we still try to work with a smile on our face---this is a job experience worth a lifetime---.

My personal belief---some of our senior leaders and millitary general and colonels must be aske to and forced to attend some sales training and people communication skill seminars presented by some sales professionals.

So when I talk to people---I never consider anyone being negative---I consider some to be less or more informed than the others---I consider some to be less or more perceptive than the others---I consider a lots of people to be more intelligent and sharper than me---but when it comes down to pakistanis being able to understand the americans---I say nay---that is where I draw the line.

 

[MZUBAIR]

If PAF really wants to buy some thing from UAE.
I guess they should wait for some time and buy used F-16 E/F Block 60.

Only Pakistan needs good relations with UAE and USA.

 

[Arsalan]

If PAF really wants to buy some thing from UAE.
I guess they should wait for some time and buy used F-16 E/F Block 60.

Only Pakistan needs good relations with UAE and USA.

well if this can some how happen in next five to six years i guess it would be the best think that could happen to PAF! this is the best option i can think of!!
allah karay ka ya sach ho jai

regards!

 

[IceCold]

I think the block 50/52 plus that the PAF is getting is pretty equally matched to the block 60 apart from of course the radar because block-60 carries an AESA radar. Meaning there wouldn't be significant boost in the PAF capabilities even if we get the block-60 from the UAE. Perhaps a better approach would be if we concentrate more on acquiring the J-10s and the JF-17 and from there move on to the 5th generation because India already has and we can't afford to stay much behind.