Mirage 2000-5 vs F16 Block 50+ Dogfight

[Kinetic]

Err, two generations ahead? How so?

When it hasn't been able to shoot down a single F-16 in Combat.

It has TVC but if you do use it and there is a chasing missile or aircraft, you end up being slow in front of them, that just doesn't make any sense.

Please elaborate how it is so much more maneuverable.....

It is not new F-16 and MKI is not comparable in terms of maneuverability. Watch the videos I have posted and if you can put something similar for any other aircraft. Forget other maneuverability, just look at the angle of attack!!! RSAF F-16 block 50/52 were outgunned by MKI during exercises. For years MKI now having have exercises with EFT/Rafale etc.

first watch the videos....

 

[razgriz19]

This is the F-16's camera. I wonder what the camera on Mirages would have captured. That would have told the complete story.

i guess u didn't watch it carefully...
the video is from mirage's camera too, u can clearly see the f-16. (unless there was another f-16,who was trying to lock on the other f-16)

 

[razgriz19]

The circle that you see in the HUD is visible when the cannon is selected. The symbol changes when a missile is switched to. Also the trailing line suggests that the cannon was selected.

yup!
u got that rite but u kno if this was a real fight, the mirage wouldn't be able to shoot down the f-16 with the cannon.

the end of the trailling line was no where near f-16, so that means the bullets would have missed their target

 

[notorious_eagle]

Dreamy fellow!!

This myth has been busted! Red Flag is not the first time MKI meeting F-15 or F-16 we have done exercise with USAF, RSAF etc with F-15/F16 earlier and its being proved that the are one generation behind and atleast in terms of maneuverability its two generation ahead of F-16.

MKI had or going to have exercises with Typhoon, F-15, Rafale etc and proved itself well.

What myth and what has been busted ? Its an accepted fact that the USAF F15's and F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to go one on one. Their is a world of difference between how the experienced pilots of F16 employ their planes as compared to the RSAF. You can choose not to accept it, but reality is reality .

So your claiming that SU30MKI is a generation ahead of the F15/F16. Now the commonly accepted fact is that the earlier versions of F15/F16's are 4 Generation Aircrafts. So this means that the SU30MKI is a 5th Generation Aircraft, a Generation ahead as you said compared to the F15/F16's. Goodness me this is such a revelation, i never knew that SU30MKI was a low observable aircraft. Damn all those experts at Janes and all around the world who claim that SU30MKI has an RCS of around 15m2, Congratulations to the IAF for fielding a 5th Generation Aircraft because that makes you the second country in the entire world to have a 5th Generation Aircraft operational.

Not long ago you claimed that PAKFA is superior to F22 on another thread and now the claim that SU30MKI is a 5th Generation Aircraft, i urge you to critically think and decide who the dreamy fellow is

 

[rockstarIN]

Err, two generations ahead? How so?

When it hasn't been able to shoot down a single F-16 in Combat.

It has TVC but if you do use it and there is a chasing missile or aircraft, you end up being slow in front of them, that just doesn't make any sense.
is so much more maneuverable
Please elaborate how it .....[/QUOTE]

Maneuverability is the ability to change speed and direction of flight path (velocity vector pointing) and controllability - ability of change aircraft attitude (pitch/roll/yaw - nose pointing) and thrust (engine response - spool up time matters). When the aircraft initial flight path in dogfight is anti-parallel flyby, combat will inevitably develop so that someone goes in a climb with rolling scissors - turn reversals along the opponent’s flight path to remain behind the opponent.

Maneuverability of modern fighter is measured by how slow it can fly and how high angle of attack it can sustain and still turn

This is the reason why F-22, F-35 are going for TVC..

TVC is above aerodynamics, it can stall in the air move the jet in an unconventional way..And MKI has 2 pilots, means it can utilize maximum advantage from TVC by high angle of attacks coz there is one dedicate weapon officer for the same.

And some people say by applying TVC it looses the speed and in turn F-16 has good turn rate, but it is a flawed argument because any pilot in WVR knows how important is air brakes in maneuverability.

 

[rockstarIN]

self delete

 

[jagjitnatt]

i guess u didn't watch it carefully...
the video is from mirage's camera too, u can clearly see the f-16. (unless there was another f-16,who was trying to lock on the other f-16)

Yes, it was another F-16 trying to lock another F-16. Hellanic Air Force vs Turkish Air Force

 

[jagjitnatt]

yup!
u got that rite but u kno if this was a real fight, the mirage wouldn't be able to shoot down the f-16 with the cannon.

the end of the trailling line was no where near f-16, so that means the bullets would have missed their target

Yes. You're right. Finally someone who knows what its like to shoot with a cannon.

They weren't gonna fire at each other. They were just being aggressive, showing each other who the daddy was.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Strange... None of you mentions one of the most important aspect in all this... which is how many hours does the pilot has under his belt in the machine that he is flying...

The more hours one practices, the better he/she is with the platform... Practice!!!

 

[rockstarIN]

Strange... None of you mentions one of the most important aspect in all this... which is how many hours does the pilot has under his belt in the machine that he is flying...

The more hours one practices, the better he/she is with the platform... Practice!!!

Chogy's reply is self explanatory for this dear, he got enormous experience but.

 

[Chogy]

Beautiful analysis of sustained turn rate of Mig21 against USAF F15s on international military forum.. i was trying to find our depletion of energy (speed) with increases Gs (turns) on delta wing fighters and stumbled on an interesting read...


Fighter performance; actual plane analysis

OK, this is really weird. I know that guy Adriann, who posted in the link you provided. He posted the exact same thing on WAB (world affairs board) of which I am a member, and we generated 6+ pages of discussion, where I think I dished his argument a bit.

Discussion on WAB

I think Adriann (a thoughtful and apparently nice guy) wrote a paper perhaps for his government, advocating upgrading older MiG-21 rather than acquiring a new airframe.

There are some advantages and disadvantages to the pure, tail-less delta planform of jets like the Mirage, the F-106. The MiG-21, while having a tail, has a nearly pure delta wing, and exhibits these properties.

Advantages - lower parasite drag, superior acceleration, excellent instantaneous turn rates.

Disadvantages - Not as effective sustaining energy. Bleeds energy at high rates due to higher induced drag. Induced drag (as opposed to parasite drag) is the drag generated by lift, meaning as you demand more lift from an airframe (high-G turning), the delta wing is not as effective as other wingforms.

All this means is that the delta wing can create an initial turn that is eye-watering, but the turn rate falls off rapidly as energy is depleted. Adriann's position (and there is some truth to it) is that high instantaneous turn, combined with point & shoot off-boresight IR missiles, is a potent combination.

But more modern airframes with specialized flight controls, canards, and/or thrust vectoring, can have the best of both worlds - a high instantaneous turn rate, and an ability to sustain energy when neeed.

Again, the Mirage series are excellent, but I think there are better out there.

 

[unicorn]

YouTube - The best of crazy fighter aircraft pilots

 

[Manticore]

sorry to dig up an old thread, I was searching for something else when these charts popped up and I decided to share

 

[Thorough Pro]

When the pilot selects the gun, he can choose whether to have "pepper" or "trailing wings". pepper is stationary on the display but trailing wings project the path, when the jets wings are inside the leading edges of the trailing wing, you fire. At least that's how it works in F-16 game.

The circle that you see in the HUD is visible when the cannon is selected. The symbol changes when a missile is switched to. Also the trailing line suggests that the cannon was selected.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Yes. You're right. Finally someone who knows what its like to shoot with a cannon.

They weren't gonna fire at each other. They were just being aggressive, showing each other who the daddy was.

check out this,

Never underestimate Turkish pilots and technology