Mirage 2000-5 vs F16 Block 50+ Dogfight

[JonAsad]

Nice idea. Would be great.
But just one problem. We don't want to understand each other's capabilities.

Believe me if we know it, it will be much much harder to start a war

 

[Kinetic]

Kinetic.. read my post again, this time with glasses.

I said without live ammunition

SU-30 can even take a F22 down if the F22 is Pakistani.. isnt it? :facepalm:

I thought you were talking without missile.

Yes, it can. F-22 is much more capable than MKI no doubt in terms of sensors, stealth etc but SU-30 MKI is more maneuverable than F-22. No operational fighter except SU-35 can do such maneuvers.... pls post something similar for F-22 if you have...

YouTube - su 30 MKI

YouTube - Sukhoi Su-30 MKI - waltz in the sky

 

[blain2]

Hi chogy. In layman terms we can say that f-16 was USAF low end fighter and was initially designed to be the work horse:where mirage was the top end fighter for France. Now for a base line comparision I can say that LCA/JF-17 are superior to J-10/Flankers. What basis are we saying that f-16s are superior?

You cannot compare the two for various reasons. The capabilities that were included in Dash 9 had been in the F-16s of 3 previous blocks so this point about low end for USAF and high-end for ADlA makes no sense. The French could not afford the capabilities that were included in the F-16s and as a result had some of the capabilities funded by the UAEAF to get them in and even after that, the F-16 tends to perform better in quite a few roles than the Mirage 2000 (which still does not mean that Mirage 2000 is not an effective platform in WVR/BVR engagements).

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

I thought you were talking without missile.

Yes, it can. F-22 is much more capable than MKI no doubt in terms of sensors, stealth etc but SU-30 MKI is more maneuverable than F-22. No operational fighter except SU-35 can do such maneuvers.... pls post something similar for F-22 if you have...

YouTube - su 30 MKI

YouTube - Sukhoi Su-30 MKI - waltz in the sky

1st let it match f-16s, leave f-22 aside

 

[Manticore]

Uh, you'd better have a radar lock with guns selected if you want a valid gun pipper. Without it, the reticle is at a fixed range and inaccurate.

These videos mean little. They are made by editing and pasting scenes together. Also, I saw a lot of "waffling" rather than true defensive maneuvering by the fighters in the HUD.

They are put together to make ready-room films. Every unit has them.

And there isn't a mirage in the world that can touch a well-flown F-16.

Sir ,whats your opinion regarding;

1]PAF didn't get the DRFM jammers on its F-16 Block 50s. Is it A big difference?

2]AMRAAM V MICA [passive]

3]Sniper V Litening

4]JHMCS V Top Owl

5]JDAM V any other equivelant

 

[Chogy]

We're all strangers, just keyboard warriors. You can't tell who I am. You can only believe what I say. So there's no way to say for certain who Chogy is.

I speak what I feel like. He gave a lame excuse, and I called it lame. Simple as that.

Maybe my "winkie" was too subtle. This guy:

Instead of saying "lame" and "stupid" and coming on like a ton of bricks, perhaps we can have a discussion...

There is a common saying that "An old pro in an F-5 or MiG-21 will easily kill a noob in an F-16 or Su-27." The reality of it, though, is that there are occasions where there is such a vast gulf in the hardware that the noob will in fact triumph. Example: towards the end of my career, I was an instructor in air to air in the AT-38B, a fighter trainer, basically a T-38. Cool airplane, lots of fun, but hopelessly outclassed. One week, we were called to Luke AFB to provide dissimilar training to brand new F-16 student pilots who were at the end of their transition course. The setups consisted of offensive and defensive perches, and neutral (butterfly) setups. I was good, I knew my own platform, I knew the F-16, and had a bag of tricks in store for this guy. So I thought.

It was one of the most frustrating series of flights I had ever had. The F-16 outperformed my AT-38 so thoroughly, it absorbed his mistakes and still allowed him to absolutely dominate the fight. Despite years of experience and every trick I knew, I was like a poodle in the jaws of a Rottweiler. Here was a case where pilot excellence meant little, and airframe was everything.

Back to the Mirage vs. the F-16. The platforms are a lot closer in performance, and this would be a case where pilot skills would absolutely count. Mirages are good aircraft, but it has issues that are inherent in every pure delta-winged jet I've encountered, and that is, induced drag in a high-G turn skyrockets, and while it has an excellent instantaneous turn rate, it cannot match the F-16 in a sustained fight. In a true neutral encounter, all else equal, I'd give the nod to the F-16.

Does that mean that the F-16 will have a 500:0 kill ratio vs. the Mirage? Of course not. As I mentioned, these HUD films are put together so pilots can sit down at the end of the day and get pumped up. I saw little to no what I would call desperate defensive maneuvering by whatever jet was in the HUD. It looked like guys were tangling, having a bit of fun, with nothing huge on the line... until someone fired a missile.

 

[Chogy]

Sir ,whats your opinion regarding;

1]PAF didn't get the DRFM jammers on its F-16 Block 50s. Is it A big difference?

2]AMRAAM V MICA [passive]

3]Sniper V Litening

4]JHMCS V Top Owl

5]JDAM V any other equivelant

Hello Antibody. I don't know that I'd be able to give you any more info on your questions beyond what you could find with normal searches and such. I will say that ECM and ECCM is one of the most technically sensitive aspects of hardware, so us people out here will never know the true capabilities as they now stand. Perhaps the jammers (and other capabilties) are actually in place, and there is a bit of misdirection going on? Stuff like that is both militarily and politically sensitive.

As for the others... advances in high off-boresight weaponry and displays have been huge, and have changed the way fights are done these days. Top Owl sounds more like a night-vision and aiming system for helicopters rather than for fighters. The ability to slave a weapon to a pilot's line of sight is amazing.

I am a fan of U.S. made weapons (obviously), but that doesn't mean that others are not equally lethal. And JDAM - of course, there you must rely on GPS, and the possibility always exists of the GPS network being encrypted or turned off in a U.S. emergency, so if I was the commander of any non-U.S. Air Force, I'd pursue JDAM or equivalent, AND an alternate system that doesn't rely on GPS... something like PAVE-TACK, a laser-guided system for iron bombs.

But each of those Q. you pose could become in themselves a big thread.

HTH

 

[rockstarIN]

Maybe my "winkie" was too subtle. This guy:

. Mirages are good aircraft, but it has issues that are inherent in every pure delta-winged jet I've encountered, and that is, induced drag in a high-G turn skyrockets, and while it has an excellent instantaneous turn rate, it cannot match the F-16 in a sustained fight. In a true neutral encounter, all else equal, I'd give the nod to the F-16.
.

Hi

Can you elaborate on this point, regarding the + and - of delta winged jet? and Vs swept wing jets?

As the new fighters are more of Delta Wing configuration, like J-10, EF, Gripen, Rafale & LCA.

Whereas 5th jen design looks like a mix of swept & Delta wing?

Is Delta adds more RCS?

Thx

 

[Rafi]

Hi

Can you elaborate on this point, regarding the + and - of delta winged jet? and Vs swept wing jets?

As the new fighters are more of Delta Wing configuration, like J-10, EF, Gripen, Rafale & LCA.

Whereas 5th jen design looks like a mix of swept & Delta wing?

Is Delta adds more RCS?

Thx

True tailless deltas do have a problem, but some of the aircraft you have mentioned above have canards, which compensate.

 

[rockstarIN]

True tailless deltas do have a problem, but some of the aircraft you have mentioned above have canards, which compensate.

But it must have some adventages too

 

[Hulk]

Maybe my "winkie" was too subtle. This guy:

Instead of saying "lame" and "stupid" and coming on like a ton of bricks, perhaps we can have a discussion...

There is a common saying that "An old pro in an F-5 or MiG-21 will easily kill a noob in an F-16 or Su-27." The reality of it, though, is that there are occasions where there is such a vast gulf in the hardware that the noob will in fact triumph. Example: towards the end of my career, I was an instructor in air to air in the AT-38B, a fighter trainer, basically a T-38. Cool airplane, lots of fun, but hopelessly outclassed. One week, we were called to Luke AFB to provide dissimilar training to brand new F-16 student pilots who were at the end of their transition course. The setups consisted of offensive and defensive perches, and neutral (butterfly) setups. I was good, I knew my own platform, I knew the F-16, and had a bag of tricks in store for this guy. So I thought.

It was one of the most frustrating series of flights I had ever had. The F-16 outperformed my AT-38 so thoroughly, it absorbed his mistakes and still allowed him to absolutely dominate the fight. Despite years of experience and every trick I knew, I was like a poodle in the jaws of a Rottweiler. Here was a case where pilot excellence meant little, and airframe was everything.Back to the Mirage vs. the F-16. The platforms are a lot closer in performance, and this would be a case where pilot skills would absolutely count. Mirages are good aircraft, but it has issues that are inherent in every pure delta-winged jet I've encountered, and that is, induced drag in a high-G turn skyrockets, and while it has an excellent instantaneous turn rate, it cannot match the F-16 in a sustained fight. In a true neutral encounter, all else equal, I'd give the nod to the F-16.

Does that mean that the F-16 will have a 500:0 kill ratio vs. the Mirage? Of course not. As I mentioned, these HUD films are put together so pilots can sit down at the end of the day and get pumped up. I saw little to no what I would call desperate defensive maneuvering by whatever jet was in the HUD. It looked like guys were tangling, having a bit of fun, with nothing huge on the line... until someone fired a missile.

And some people think it's only the man behind the machine that matters.

 

[maverick1977]

Beautiful analysis of sustained turn rate of Mig21 against USAF F15s on international military forum.. i was trying to find our depletion of energy (speed) with increases Gs (turns) on delta wing fighters and stumbled on an interesting read...


Fighter performance; actual plane analysis

 

[notorious_eagle]

Than the SU-30MKIs will take down all the aircrafts within few minutes. It can shoot from any angle and have unlimited angle of attack!

And Indians say they don't believe SU30MKI is 'God's Gift to Aviation' , this whole perception of MKI being the greatest aviation military project is what got them schooled at Red Flag. The Indians go to Red Flag with the same mind set insisting that they wanted to go one on one against USAF aggressor planes thinking they would use their fancy TVC in WVR engagements. Funny thing is, SU30MKI employs their TVC and this is exactly what gets them killed. The plane gets into post stall maneuver, looses kinetic energy while forgetting that F15/F16's have excellent turn rates.

Result: F15's and F16's hammer the MKI to the point that they refuse to go one on one after the beating. I love how the Indians paint the MKI as something its not ahahaha

 

[Kinetic]

And Indians say they don't believe SU30MKI is 'God's Gift to Aviation' , this whole perception of MKI being the greatest aviation military project is what got them schooled at Red Flag. The Indians go to Red Flag with the same mind set insisting that they wanted to go one on one against USAF aggressor planes thinking they would use their fancy TVC in WVR engagements. Funny thing is, SU30MKI employs their TVC and this is exactly what gets them killed. The plane gets into post stall maneuver, looses kinetic energy while forgetting that F15/F16's have excellent turn rates.

Result: F15's and F16's hammer the MKI to the point that they refuse to go one on one after the beating. I love how the Indians paint the MKI as something its not ahahaha

Dreamy fellow!!

This myth has been busted! Red Flag is not the first time MKI meeting F-15 or F-16 we have done exercise with USAF, RSAF etc with F-15/F16 earlier and its being proved that the are one generation behind and atleast in terms of maneuverability its two generation ahead of F-16.

MKI had or going to have exercises with Typhoon, F-15, Rafale etc and proved itself well.

 

[Donatello]

Dreamy fellow!!

This myth has been busted! Red Flag is not the first time MKI meeting F-15 or F-16 we have done exercise with USAF, RSAF etc with F-15/F16 earlier and its being proved that the are one generation behind and atleast in terms of maneuverability its two generation ahead of F-16.

MKI had or going to have exercises with Typhoon, F-15, Rafale etc and proved itself well.

Err, two generations ahead? How so?

When it hasn't been able to shoot down a single F-16 in Combat.

It has TVC but if you do use it and there is a chasing missile or aircraft, you end up being slow in front of them, that just doesn't make any sense.

Please elaborate how it is so much more maneuverable.....