MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

[Rajaraja Chola]

Yes India was but not as badly effected as Pakistan. Huge difference.... India was getting all the goodies from Russia and Israel. I mean you got mighty Fulcrums, Flankers and mirages in those sanctions right?? where as Pakistan was denied even spares to keep its old F-16s in air. Plus china wasn't producing anything better than mig-21s therefore in 1999 PAF was in quite a bad shape but as of now things are better... and in near future as more options would be available from a single source only (China) things would get much better.

True. But its not our mistake. We played neutral to USA and USSR during cold war. And u guys made the mistake of jumping to US wagon since ur birth. POlicy makers didnt think about the future at all.

Flankers were not used in 99. And Mig 29 was bought in response to F 16s, hope u know that.
And there was a communication gap between ur army and PAF. They were not at all informed about the ops. Or else they would have taken some measures.

 

[dilpakistani]

Good to know the inner details of IAF opertation during Kargil.

Hope IAF concludes all the purchases quickly and with the new inductions of Rafale, AH-64D and Tejas, IAF/IA will be more potent than ever.

Yea but if you are suggesting it would be potent enough to target Pakistan!!!... i think gone are the days... any escalation beyond diplomatic fallout will have serious consequences for both countries.

 

[trident2010]

Yea but if you are suggesting it would be potent enough to target Pakistan!!!... i think gone are the days... any escalation beyond diplomatic fallout will have serious consequences for both countries.

It will give them more options towards the planned doctrine.

 

[dilpakistani]

True. But its not our mistake. We played neutral to USA and USSR during cold war. And u guys made the mistake of jumping to US wagon since ur birth. POlicy makers didnt think about the future at all.

Flankers were not used in 99. And Mig 29 was bought in response to F 16s, hope u know that.
And there was a communication gap between ur army and PAF. They were not at all informed about the ops. Or else they would have taken some measures.

Yea we all know history as it happened... Point is that mig-29 locked on F-16s and they disengaged is nothing to brag about... there wasn't a full scale conflict with India and PAF rightfully decided to not consume its limited combat capability in to territorial conflict because there was a serious and almost certain threat that it would become a full scale war and PAF would need all it strength for that... they wisely held back.

 

[janon]

Yea we all know history as it happened... Point is that mig-29 locked on F-16s and they disengaged is nothing to brag about... there wasn't a full scale conflict with India and PAF rightfully decided to not consume its limited combat capability in to territorial conflict because there was a serious and almost certain threat that it would become a full scale war and PAF would need all it strength for that... they wisely held back.

The fact is that IAF was able to keep the PAF from entering the war. The migs were giving top cover to jaguars that were doing bombing runs of the PA/mujahideen's supply and base depots. If the mig 29s were not present, the F-16s would have shot down the jags. But our aerial superiority ensured that PAF played no part in the war.

While you are right that the PAF is in a much better position today, I have to say that if the PA is stupid enough to carry out another kargil type misadventure (which it probably won't), then the role of the PAF won't be very different - it will be missing from action again. Because this was a war started by musharaff without even taking the country's air and naval forces into confidence. The PAF chief of the time has said publically that he knew about the war after it started. What sort of preparation can an air force do, if asked to come into the picture at such a juncture? Even the IAF had more time to prepare than the PAF.

Anyway, the importance of maintaining qualitative superiority over the PAF was well recognized, which is probably one of the reasons that the IAF is becoming such a top heavy air force, with three twin engined, heavy jets to be in service in future (MKI, RAFALE, FGFA). The Rafale-MKI combo can continue to ensure superiority over the PAF for any future engagements.

 

[dbc]

The fact is that IAF was able to keep the PAF from entering the war. The migs were giving top cover to jaguars that were doing bombing runs of the PA/mujahideen's supply and base depots. If the mig 29s were not present, the F-16s would have shot down the jags. But our aerial superiority ensured that PAF played no part in the war.

The IAF did not keep PAF from entering the war, the F-16's were limited to patrol missions and their only instruction was to engage intruders into Pakistan airspace. IAF did not intrude and PAF did not engage - it is really that simple. Implying that the PAF was afraid of the Mig-29 or the converse that the IAF was afraid of the F-16 is stupid.

 

[janon]

The IAF did not keep PAF from entering the war, the F-16's were limited to patrol missions and their only instruction was to engage intruders into Pakistan airspace. IAF did not intrude and PAF did not engage - it is really that simple. Implying that the PAF was afraid of the Mig-29 or the converse that the IAF was afraid of the F-16 is stupid.

I did not imply that either pilots were afraid to pick a fight with the other. I was talking about the larger picture, that the PAF could play no part in a war that Pakistan had started. And why is that, because their air force is full of peaceniks? Why is it that they did not want to shoot down IAF jets, even when they were bombing their armymen?

It was Pakistan that decided to fight a war on Indian territory. But if the air force did not want to give ground support to such a war, what possible reason could it be? Why were orders issued to the PAF not to enter Indian airspace, when their ground troops had already done so?

India had valid reasons for not entering Pakistani airspace - it did not need to. The fighting was taking place on our territory, and our only interest was to defend our territory. Pakistan's interest was to capture Indian territory, and yet their air force was not allowed to enter Indian territory, even when their ground troops were being bombed.

So there is a difference in the reasons for either air force for deciding not to enter the other's territory.

So the point is not whether individual pilots in the migs or F-16s were afraid of each other. But the fact is that in case of an escalated war, the IAF would have had clear supremacy over the PAF of that time. It was because of this reality that pak decided not to employ its air force in a war that it started in Indian territory.

(By the way there were plenty of instances where the IAF entered Pakistani airspace, as given by accounts of IAF officials. But I don't have the time to dig out sources, and even if you choose not to believe that, the rest of my post is valid.)

 

[Cherokee]

Too much Overt Chest thumping in this article . Some Truth , Some fabrications and a lot of Assumptions .

IAF and PAF did not meet . It was NLI vs IAF and IAF pummeled them with LGB's .

 

[ares]

Yea we all know history as it happened... Point is that mig-29 locked on F-16s and they disengaged is nothing to brag about... there wasn't a full scale conflict with India and PAF rightfully decided to not consume its limited combat capability in to territorial conflict because there was a serious and almost certain threat that it would become a full scale war and PAF would need all it strength for that... they wisely held back.

In hindsight Pakistani plan makes no sense at all..they send in their troops to capture bunkers which have been vacated by Indian army..but are not given any air cover.

Didn't you expect India to escalate the war vertically and IAF to bomb their positions and supply lines?

Or was the plan all along had been ..Pakistani troops will sit on Kargil peaks without any aircover as long as they can, till IAF or IA bombs them out?
Why did you use your men in such expendable fashion?

 

[janon]

In hindsight Pakistani plan makes no sense at all..they send in their troops to capture bunkers which have been vacated by Indian army..but are not given any air cover.

Didn't you expect India to escalate the war vertically and IAF to bomb their positions and supply lines?

Or was the plan all along had been ..Pakistani troops will sit on Kargil peaks without any aircover as long as they can, till IAF or IA bombs them out?
Why did you use your men in such expendable fashion?

They have made the same mistake over and over again, assuming that once they send a few mujahideens in and start skirmishing with the Indian army, the local population of kashmiris will all rise in revolt against the IA, and then the rest of the Pakistani army can charge in, and will be greeted as liberators.

They did it in 1965 with operation Gibraltar, where their SSG and other mujahideens infiltrated into Kashmir with the aim of instigating the local Kashmiris into revolt. The local kashmiris alerted the IA and police, and their SSG were all decimated. The '65 war ensued.

They did it several times later, most notably in 1999.

They continue to sneak in terrorists today, with the same hope. Some people never learn, that the cause they are fighting for does not exist.

As long as they delude themselves that Indian Kashmiris are all being brutally ruled by the IA, and are all eagerly waiting for their Pakistani saviours, and not willfully living as Indians, they will continue performing these half assed attempts at taking Kashmir by infiltrating a few mujahideens.

 

[dbc]

Why were orders issued to the PAF not to enter Indian airspace, when their ground troops had already done so?

Pakistan claimed they were freedom fighters, freedom fighters don't have an air force.

 

[janon]

Pakistan claimed they were freedom fighters, freedom fighters don't have an air force.

Yes, they claimed.

But as we knew then, and as they also know today, it was planned by the army chief himself, and was an operation to capture Indian territory, planned by the highest war planners in the land, including their corps commanders (who basically run Pakistan). And yet they did not dare to use their air force. Not because individual pilots were afraid to fight, but because in the overall picture, PAF stood no chance.

If the PAF had parity with the IAF, they would have used it. Like they did in their previous attempt to take Kashmir in 1965. Then too, similar story of "freedom fighters" was put out. But the PAF did not hesitate to attack Indian bases then.

 

[Norboo]

Some sources say that PA kept PAF in dark while planning Kargil.

Absolutely correct! But you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why the PAF could not join battle. The fact is that Mush thought it wise to keep the whole operation so secret that he felt it not necessary to co-opt the PAF into the battle plan!

But there was a reason for this. The PAF could not be employed on Indian territory as that would be suicide. The skirmish could have escalated into an all out war on all fronts.

Thirdly, Mush had to keep his bluff going that the yahoos who occupied the vacant Kargil posts were NOT regular PA troops but so-called 'Kashmir freedom fighters'. If that bluff was to be carried through then there was just no way that he could have ordered the PAF for close air support to those 'freedom fighters'! That would be letting the cat out of the bag by telling the world about Pakistan's complicity in state sponsored terror!

So poor guy Mush had landed himself between a rock and a hard place! When he started getting whacked, he begged Nawaz Bhai to rush to the US of A for divine help.

All in all it was a poorly laid out plan which was a tactical and strategic disaster. His commando brain just could see beyond his nose. Instant gratification was all he wanted. He not only screwed himself in the process, the prestige of Pakistan's armed forces got a beating too.

I hope the generals of the PA have learnt their lessons!

 

[anant_s]

This video documenting the story posted here.

I think the important lesson here is that Defence establishment realized that it can use IAF as a game changer even at such high altitude war.
Yes true there was loss of aircrafts, Helis and more sadly Pilots, but thats the price India paid to learn a vital lesson.

Pakistan has far better airpower today but then IAF has also come out a long way.

 

[sancho]

Pakistan claimed they were freedom fighters, freedom fighters don't have an air force.

As if their forces wouldn't have officially jumped in, the minute the attack would have shown even a remote chance to be successful.
The fact is, PAF was in clear disadvantage back then and any involvement into the conflict would have resulted in high losses and remaining defensive was the better choice. However, it's also a fact that the times had changed and that PAF is way more capable in defensive, but also offensive regards today.